quality of the steel

I'm fairly new to this art - I have a question concerning the differences of the blade metallurgy. First you should know that I do my own honing and don't consider myself an expert by any means. I have a J.A Henckles 6/8 Friodur, a Boker 6/8 Silversteel and a Marke Birko 5/8 stainless Solingen. The Henckles and the Boker reward me with comfortable and
pleasant shaves. The Birko isn't bad but there is a noticeable difference in the feel and it isn't as comfortable. I have lavished it with as much honing attention as the other two.
Am I right in thinking the difference in shave quality is due to the metallurgy difference. By that I mean some razors will not shave as well as others. Learner

I think you're onto something. Some of my razors take amazing edges with seemingly little effort, while others are a PITA. With all the well respected brands though, I have found I need to alter my honing efforts to accommodate some of them. Sometimes a geometry problem, or a blade is harder than another, Some steel it seems easier to blow by a quality edge because I wasn't paying attention. OTOH there may be a real problem with it, like it got too hot when someone was trying to buff it, etc... and destroyed the temper.

There are a few guys around here that know much about metallurgy that I'm sure will chime in. I'm of the opinion that you may need to switch things up a bit with your honing in order to achieve edge you desire.

The steel is most likely the last part of the equation to look at

There are so many other variables that come into play that are the more probable culprits

That being said, Yes some razors are just better then others but in my experience there are mostly good razors, very very few Great razors, and a few simply bad ones...

Yeah as gssixgun already said, the metallurgy comes at the end of the row. First thing is a proper honing. Nearly all "standard" quality blades can be good shavers, if the honing is good. As beginner you may let the honing be done from an expert first, just to see and have a comparison, what the honing can do.
My recommendation is to learn honing and come into this step by step. Honing is - or can at least be - a main and very intersting part of straigth razor shaving.
To the razors you mentioned - I have two Birko razors and in general they are very good quality razors, made by Oto Birkhofen, Solingen, who was in business somehow between 1930 and 1950.
So apart from maybe a bad spike in quality the Birkos should not stand too far behind a Henckels or a Boker.

Makes you wonder if honing is not a lot like marriage. You give your partner what they need/want and it is smooth sailing in the marriage. Hone a blade the way it needs/wants to be honed and smooth shaving is yours. Trick is to find out what the needs/wants are.

Bob

As a student of steel in razors, I can see Glen's perspective that it's how things are done and what is done to the inanimate blade to make it work. It should be possible for Glen, et. al. the honmeisters, to take a piece of unhardened mild steel and hone it well enough to shave with it.

But, I suppose this is the point where I can safely say (as BobH has...) that "The steel will talk to you and tell you what it wants." That makes the steel (the object of the exercise) more important than the other variables, if we are going to allude to it being like a relationship. ;)

The study of razors (and relationships) is becoming more like modern physics where the boundaries of mysticism and magic are becoming blurred with the science. Makes me think of the nine blind fellows trying to describe an elephant.

So, what is being said is that I still have a good bit of learning to grasp regarding the subtle nuances oh honing. I won't argue about that. But I still maintain
that some razors are of better quality than others which is why some of us go a little nuts in collecting razors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Learner

So, what is being said is that I still have a good bit of learning to grasp regarding the subtle nuances oh honing. I won't argue about that. But I still maintain
that some razors are of better quality than others which is why some of us go a little nuts in collecting razors.

---

I am learning as I go too and also have a good bit more to learn.

Out of a small, by the standards of this board, 40 odd SR rotation from mixed nations and mixed makers all seem to shave well if I can do my part in putting an edge on them. I think that they were all built to a pretty good quality standard with pretty good steel. It may be that there are some exceptionally good shavers out where every step in the manufacturing of the blade was not just within spec quality wise but was spot on spec. I don't think that when that happens it is confined to a certain maker or from a certain nation for an extended period of time. I think it is more like a lucky fluke of production and you are lucky if it wound up in your hands. By the same token you can get a poor quality razor from any production run too. The old saying of never buy a Monday or Friday made car is an example of that.

Bob

I'll keep working on the Marke Birco to see if I can make it give a more comfortable shave. If I fail I will send it to Lynn as I probably should have already done. Thanks
to all who have taken time to pass on their thoughts on the subject.

I am no expert. I do have a well rounded collection. I do my own honing. I have gotten compliments from others on my edges. I am certain that you need to hone and shave for some time before you can tell the difference between which razors are the very few very good ones from the very common good ones. The most common issue with a blade that does not shave really well is with the bevel. It is the base of everything and nothing will be great unless the bevel is great. Careful inspection with a loupe is how I get there these days.

RezDog: I think you & the other commentators are right - experience and knowing what to look for and to gauge progress is vital. I restore sports cars and am pretty good at it.
But, I have been doing it for forty-five years and have skills that were a long time in development. I expect learning to properly hone is a skill that will take a long time to learn.
Judging progress and noticing incremental changes are my weakest part of the process.
If there are any teaching get togethers in Indiana or Western Ohio that would be open to boneheads who don't want to be boneheads I would welcome an invite.

I have truly awful geography so I won't suggest that any of the meets are near by, but a lot of guys travel some pretty good distances to attend meets. I have to say there is no faster way to learn than sitting beside guys that truly know there way around every hone, and can spot your pitfalls right away. You need to figure out how far you are willing to make a road or plane trip and then go for it on the very next opportunity. If you are wanting to see it all happen before your eyes it is worth a trip. Plus I always enjoy the trip as well.

Are upcoming meets posted somewhere?

Get Togethers and Meetings

Are upcoming meets posted somewhere? Learner

Just click my link

Thanks once again RezDog. So far it is a history of get togethers & meetings. I'll keep tabs on it for future get togethers. Sorry for posting the same question twice; I wrongly
thought the first one "didn't take".

September in Seattle I think is the next one planned. There is a pretty active group in California and another in Minnesota. There are random get togethers here and there and very small groups that meet as well. Not everything hits the forum. You could try posting a want to get together or you could look for active senior members by doing a member search under the community tab.

The next meet-up that I am aware of is in Denver Co. on the 19th.

Thank's FranfC, I'm doing a long road trip to Monterey CA region in mid Aug for the best car fun in the country. I'll be busy getting ready for that and wouldn't
be able to take the time to go to Denver. If anything else develops I and probably others would like to know.

Back to the Steel, I would think that 52100 steel, (Ball Bearing) properly heat treated would make an excellent razor all around and may try it in the future, yes I like to tinker.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Learner

If anything else develops I ... would like to know.

---

Hang around this joint. Yes, there is more to learn working with a couple of honemeisters than anywhere else. HOWEVER - until you get to a meet, there are plenty of nuggets to be dug up in the stropping and honing forums that will better prepare you for a meeting and, even still, can change your game.

Returning to my original thought that there are differences in the quality of the steel in various blades - I kept working on the underperforming Marke Birko and got it to pass the
hanging hair test. It provided vary satisfying shaves for two days; the third day resulted in uncomfortable pulling (yes, I stropped it) The Boker and the Henkles fine edges lasts
and lasts.

Possibly overhoning.
Check under magnification for a rolled edge. If you dont have magnification, check using a q tip by pushing it from spine to off the edge. If it pulls cotton off , you have a rolled edge.
Or a bad stropping as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FAL

Back to the Steel, I would think that 52100 steel, (Ball Bearing) properly heat treated would make an excellent razor all around and may try it in the future, yes I like to tinker.:)

---

The bit in red is crucial for any steel used for razors.

I don't know anything about metallurgy but I have seen a couple different razors. I've always had a thing for French razors. But I can say tha that few of them if any compare to the English, German, or Japanese I've had. I wanted them to, but they didn't. You see a razors worth when you hone it. Generally speaking, the Japanese I've had outperform the others. There are exceptions but in general that has been my experience. I'll let someone else explain why that might be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I don't know anything about metallurgy but I have seen a couple different razors. I've always had a thing for French razors. But I can say tha that few of them if any compare to the English, German, or Japanese I've had. I wanted them to, but they didn't. You see a razors worth when you hone it. Generally speaking, the Japanese I've had outperform the others. There are exceptions but in general that has been my experience. I'll let someone else explain why that might be.

---

I'd hazard a guess the Jp razors were newer & didn't need restoration or were you comparing identical vintages.?

French razors can be a joy to use as long as they don't have rusty old bevels but that applies to all razors.

I have bought 4 different hand held microscopes, including the Veho, in a quest to see what is changing when honing. I'm pretty sure I haven't overhoned. I know about the straight pin test.
Had I overhoned I would expect bad results from the first shave. The bad stropping is a possibility except that I strop the Boker & the Henkles with the same action as the Birko. I have
watched most of the stropping videos on You Tube. I'm certainly not saying that I think I'm anywhere close to being an expert; I'm learning and will continue to learn for the rest of my
life. Thank all who have offered thoughts - listening to and considering them leads to improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'd hazard a guess the Jp razors were newer & didn't need restoration or were you comparing identical vintages.?

French razors can be a joy to use as long as they don't have rusty old bevels but that applies to all razors.

---

No. I am just making a general statement based on the razors that I've owned. None of the French were restored and a few of them are brand new. They are good, I wouldn't suggest they aren't. But of the half dozen Japanese I own, not one has had any issues. I had one brand new TI at one point that would not hold an edge more than a few shaves. I have a Hart that sadly under-performs for the money it cost. There's potentially a lemon in any bunch but in my experience thus far, I have not seen a Japanese one. I'm sure someone has at some point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Learner

I have bought 4 different hand held microscopes, including the Veho, in a quest to see what is changing when honing. I'm pretty sure I haven't overhoned. I know about the straight pin test.
Had I overhoned I would expect bad results from the first shave. The bad stropping is a possibility except that I strop the Boker & the Henkles with the same action as the Birko. I have
watched most of the stropping videos on You Tube. I'm certainly not saying that I think I'm anywhere close to being an expert; I'm learning and will continue to learn for the rest of my
life. Thank all who have offered thoughts - listening to and considering them leads to improvement.

---

A lot of people will insist that the microscope is mostly nonsense. But I use one all the time and its a tremendous help to me. Once I started to really watch what was happening at each level and began to understand it a little more, the doors flew open. At that point, it was much more clear what I should be expecting to accomplish at each grit. And for me, that was half the battle....just knowing what I should expect to be doing at each step. If you can't get to that point, you don't know when to move on and when to stay put.

I just got a Mastro Livi with his RW34 stainless steel. I have honed Bokers, Aust, Genco, Dovo, Genevas etc and have got excellent edges. I just could not get an edge that worked. Sent it out and got it honed by someone who has done wonders on other blades and it came back today, perfect. He said he has a Livi with this steel and it is harder and less flexible and needs a little different technique. I have been taught to check the blade under a glass to see if the bevel is even and if it is smooth i.e. a black edge. I do this after each stone. Makes sense all steel is not the same and may need a different approach to hone.