W. Greaves & Sons Ne Plus Ultra Wood Scales--Type Wood? Original?

Just acquired this early pre Sheaf Works W. Greaves & Sons from the bay with probably its original coffin. Not only was it heavy and wide, a near 8/8, measuring .99 inches and was etched with Ne Plus Ultra. I was also very surprised and delighted that it really does have black painted "wood" scales. I have found that most of the SR descriptions on eBay state that the scales are "wood" but are in fact, old black horn. I have never had a true set of wood scales that are of such quality that they appear to possibly be original to this old beauty. I have found many sets of rustic homemade replacement wood scales but never had one from the period or probably original to the piece. Have two questions for all who care to comment:
1.) Did the old Sheffield cutlers use wood for their scales? If so, what kind of woods did they use? This looks like it could be walnut but I am a novice in identifying types of wood species.
2.) Are these scales original to the piece?

Please see photos and appreciate your thoughts, insights and comments.

Briefly touch a red hot needle to the inside area of the scales. If it smells like burning hair it is horn.

Them's horn. What a beautiful beast! :tu

Very nice, I have a big old Greaves beast like that....same horn scales on mine, but they were literally brittle dry, cracked on several places, and beyond repair...beautiful smooth shave with that only IMO luxurious Sheffield steel.

Here's mine, as you can tell, it's an old, old soldier;)

Attachment 206556

Here is mine, original scales as well

Attachment 206557Attachment 206558

I'm with Tom, those are horn.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Here is mine, original scales as well

Attachment 206557Attachment 206558

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That looks vaguely familiar Tom... :D

:tu

Yezzzz, Mike! I know you have seen pics of these scales before! ;)

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Originally Posted by Wirm

Briefly touch a red hot needle to the inside area of the scales. If it smells like burning hair it is horn.

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Tried the red hot needle test on the inside of the scale and it smells just like burnt wood. Had my daughter and wife try it and both agreed it smelled like burnt wood. It looks like wood to me and now it smells like wood. I can even see the black paint or stain on the inside of the scales. As I said, I really expected it to be horn, as you all do, but it is wood. Now, what kind of wood was used? Anyone have any historic reference to what type wood was used by the early c1820s Sheffield Cutlers?

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Originally Posted by ajkenne

Tried the red hot needle test on the inside of the scale and it smells just like burnt wood. Had my daughter and wife try it and both agreed it smelled like burnt wood. It looks like wood to me and now it smells like wood. I can even see the black paint or stain on the inside of the scales. As I said, I really expected it to be horn, as you all do, but it is wood. Now, what kind of wood was used? Anyone have any historic reference to what type wood was used by the early c1820s Sheffield Cutlers?

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Thinking of the potential water surrounding a straight razor, I might think it would be mahagony....only reason I say this is I used to make fishing lures using that type of wood....can't really tell from the grain.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Thinking of the potential water surrounding a straight razor, I might think it would be mahagony....only reason I say this is I used to make fishing lures using that type of wood....can't really tell from the grain.

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I agree that it could be mahogany as I have a set of mahogany scales and they do look somewhat similar. There was plenty of Honduran mahogany around in the day as fine furniture was made from it. Walnut was also used and seems to be a harder wood. Thanks for your input Phrank. This may be in the "too hard to do category" as a lot of these wood grains tend to look alike to me.

Sand them off a bit. Maybe they are wood? If so, someone made them darn close to the originals and painted them black?
If so, perhaps sanding them clean and applying a finish would be cool. If someone made them of wood, it was certainly long ago!
Might be worth saving, IMO

I have no intention of replacing them. They are a thing of beauty and fine craftmanship. I have just never seen wood scales like this before in the five years I've been into restoration work. I may try to buff them a bit, softly. If horn, all of the brown color would turn black and shine up, if wood they should stay as is?

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Yezzzz, Mike! I know you have seen pics of these scales before! ;)

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:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2: ...Har!



Attachment 206566

OK, About face! :rofl2: Here is an old Greaves 'Philadelphia Razor' For which someone made long grain hickory scales long ago.
I sanded them good and hit them with Minwax Polyurethane stain. Original iron collars and lead wedge! :)

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

OK, About face! :rofl2: Here is an old Greaves 'Philadelphia Razor' For which someone made long grain hickory scales long ago.
I sanded them good and hit them with Minwax Polyurethane stain. Original iron collars and lead wedge! :)

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Sweet! Was the original color of these scales black (painted/stained) or were they natural?

I am somewhat curious why my razor doesn't have bullseye collars considering its age but alot of them from this period had the standard smaller washers/collars. I can live with the smaller collars. They look fine, although I do like the old the bullseyes.

Oh, They were gray and dried out, not painted, however. I suppose that then, as now, some did not care about saving collars or did not have the skills to do so. Certainly many were made without big collars, but Greaves seemed to favor them, FME.

Keep on looking......Still may be horn! :hmmm:
Seems a lot of built-up lather and crud inside the scales. Need to unpin completely, I think!

Austin,
I was going to say the same. They're horn but look like wood sometimes. I don't know what to say. I've had quite a few horn scales look like wood with wood looking grain but I never tried the test because I was under the assumption they were horn.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Keep on looking......Still may be horn! :hmmm:
Seems a lot of built-up lather and crud inside the scales. Need to unpin completely, I think!

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Actually they are pretty clean. Not hardly any lather build up at all. I can see the wood grain on the inside of one scale and paint or stain residue as I am not sure the inside was painted. The other scale without the paint wear and with some minor worm (?) holes or chips could in fact be black horn. I will redo that side with the hot pin test tomorrow. Taking the scales apart would certainly answer much of this but don't know if I am ready for that yet. Going to take this restore real slow.

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Originally Posted by engine46

Austin,
I was going to say the same. They're horn but look like wood sometimes. I don't know what to say. I've had quite a few horn scales look like wood with wood looking grain but I never tried the test because I was under the assumption they were horn.

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Steve, know what you are saying but some of what I am seeing is definitely wood but the other scale may be horn. I have always been able to buff up old horn so you can really tell it is horn. Doubt this will happen here. Will do some more testing tomorrow. Thanks for your input on all this.

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Originally Posted by ajkenne

Actually they are pretty clean. Not hardly any lather build up at all. I can see the wood grain on the inside of one scale and paint or stain residue as I am not sure the inside was painted. The other scale without the paint wear and with some minor worm (?) holes or chips could in fact be black horn. I will redo that side with the hot pin test tomorrow. Taking the scales apart would certainly answer much of this but don't know if I am ready for that yet. Going to take this restore real slow.

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Austin, I just did that hot pin test on a few old scales that look like wood. I also did a hot pin test on a pice of cocobolo. The horn smelled like horn & the cocobolo smelled like wood. Could it be possible that IF they are wood, the original scales might have been accidentally broken back in the day & some wood replacements were made?

Lots of scale halves have been done in wood leaving the other half in original material.

I just went back & looked at the pics over & over very closely. They appear to be wood, especially in the last pic of them, the inside of the scale looks unpainted. They also look to be some damn good replacements.They did put quality into their work back in the day. Upon inspecting the wedge end, it doesn't look as uniform & in the second pic, one side of the wedge end looks more rounded. I'm also curious about the pins & collars. I'm going through some of my Greaves razor's but some of them have different pinning so it is hard to tell. I have one that doesn't have any collars on it at all but many of the others have the large collars. I'm not doubting Tom's word either although I have yet to come across any or if I do, I haven't noticed. I just have a gut feeling that if they are wood, they were like I said, damn good replacement homemade scales.

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Originally Posted by engine46

I just went back & looked at the pics over & over very closely. They appear to be wood, especially in the last pic of them, the inside of the scale looks unpainted. They also look to be some damn good replacements.They did put quality into their work back in the day. Upon inspecting the wedge end, it doesn't look as uniform & in the second pic, one side of the wedge end looks more rounded. I'm also curious about the pins & collars. I'm going through some of my Greaves razor's but some of them have different pinning so it is hard to tell. I have one that doesn't have any collars on it at all but many of the others have the large collars. I'm not doubting Tom's word either although I have yet to come across any or if I do, I haven't noticed. I just have a gut feeling that if they are wood, they were like I said, damn good replacement homemade scales.

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Mystery solved. I just finished doing the hot pin test on both scales. One is horn and the other is wood. Agree that the wood scales is the likely replacement. It is indeed a great replacement for the original horn scale. Will probably keep the same scales but may use replica bullseyes as collars. When I take it apart, I'll try to take additional photos of the inside scales and post them. Thanks for everybody's input on this. I appreciate it very much.

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Originally Posted by ajkenne

Mistery solved. I just finished doing the hot pin test on both scales. One is horn and the other is wood. Agree that the wood scales is the likely replacement. It is indeed a great replacement fot the original horn scale. Will probably keep the same scales but may use replica bullseyes as collars. When I take it apart, I'll try to take additional photos of the inside scales and post them. Thanks for everybodys input on this. I appreciate it very much.

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Austin, I looked at them very closely several times & could see some minor differences. I bet the wooden one is off just a tad but they did with what they had back then so the replacement was a damn good one.

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Originally Posted by engine46

Austin, I looked at them very closely several times & could see some minor differences. I bet the wooden one is off just a tad but they did with what they had back then so the replacement was a damn good one.

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Steve, I agree completely. Previously, I thought that I made some really good wooden replacement scales (IMHO) but after having seen and studied the workmanship of this old (prossibly period) wood scale ,I need to work a bit harder. The Sheffield Cutlers back in the day set a mighty high standard. I will do better as a result of all this. A good lesson learned for me. Again, my thanks to all, Austin

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Lots of scale halves have been done in wood leaving the other half in original material.

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Just to confirm with photos. One was done in black horn, probably the original. The other, probably the replacement, was done in wood, painted black. I will intend to replace these with a nice set dark horn scales matching the originals and will use some nice replica domed stainless steel washers. Should turn out nice.

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Originally Posted by ajkenne

Just to confirm with photos. One was done in black horn, probably the original. The other, probably the replacement, was done in wood, painted black. I will intend to replace these with a nice set dark horn scales matching the originals and will use some nice replica domed stainless steel washers. Should turn out nice.

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That should be nice when it's done Austin.