Wanted: Pictures of razors from end 18th to early 19th Century with Damascus blades

I'm writing an essay about the European history on research and imitation of the real oriental damascus steel (crucible steel) blades. The Parisian cutler Jean-Jacques Perret plays an important role in this subject. Until now I have never seen anoriginal blade made by him. Has anybody ever seen one of his razor or other blades (Knives, Hanger, etc.) or even better got pictures?

In written sources from1786 to 1825 I found several French cutlers who made razor blades with“Damascus steel”, such as:

Sr. Lethien in Paris (1788): “rasoir (razor) … en vrai damas (true damascus steel) and Damas corroyé (laminated or pattern welded steel)”
M. Degrand in Marseille (1819): M. Degrand (Marseille) : “… des rasoirs, …, composés d'une étoffe d'acier corroyée, semblable à celle qu'on fabrique en Syrie pour former les lames de sabre connues sous le nom de Damas. ” (laminated or pattern weldedsteel)
Mme Degrand-Gurgey in Marseille (1820) : “… rasoirs, etc. en damas de la plus grande beauté. Personne avant ce fabricant n'avait fait de bon rasoirs en damas; ceux de Mme Degrand offrent des dessins très-variés.”
M. Pradier in Paris (1822):“… rasoirs …, qu'il a fabriqués en acier-damas de Clouet, et dont les surfaces,à l'exception des bords du tranchant, sont recouvertes de ces figures variées qu'on remarque sur les lames orientales ...” (laminated or pattern welded steel)
M. Treppoz in Paris (1823):“… rasoirs … en bon acier de damas, qui coupe le fer...”
Madame veuve Charles in Paris (1823) : “… rasoirs d'acier fondu …, et à lames façon de Damas...”
M. Bergougnan in Paris (1823):“… rasoirs damassés ...”
M. Sirhenry in Paris (1825):“… damas de Sir Henry ...”

I would much appreciate any pictures of razor blades from the above mentioned French cutlers or any English cutlers at this time i.e .late 18^th and early 19^th C. Any pictures of blades claimed to be made of Damascus steel (true and imitation).Or pictures of any razor blades before 1825 which have a watered appearance likethe true Damascus blades or pattern welded pattern.

Thank you for your help.

Richard R.

Here you go:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ds-1771-a.html

http://www.shaveworld.org/home/image...mpfe-rev2.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogonotomia

http://razorland55.free.fr/Word/perret01.pdf

Attachment 219595

Attachment 219596

Attachment 219597

Attachment 219598

Attachment 219599

Attachment 219600

Attachment 219601

I looked his name up on Google & found the link to here at SRP plus the other pics I show which 2 or 3 are in the SRP link. I do not know if they are Damascus blades but it is some photo's plus you might contact Martin103 about him. He knows a lot of information that I don't. I hope to gain more knowledge as time goes on.
Amazon also sells books on him.

Thank you for the drawing pictures of Perret's razor blades.

I have got Perret's publications on blades and steel but unfortunately I never found a photo of an original Perret blade (razor, knife, hanger, etc.).

I'm sorry I don't have any references or blades offhand of damask, but I might recommend also asking at le retour de coupe choux if you haven't already (Le Retour du Coupe Chou :: Le Forum du Rasage au Coupe-chou, Rasoir Custom et Kamisori). Charlie is very knowledgeable and has an extensive collection of early pieces.

Try Zak’s website, The Shivering Beggar for some great photos and info.

Lohar from the Coupe Chou Club has a Sirhenry razor in Damas. I'll ask him some pictures.

Here are some pictures of a surgeon set in damas too, from the same cutler.

http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/...1032184811.png

http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2014/...3235145112.png

http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/...3235606755.png

Got it :

http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/13/33/95/13/screen11.jpg

By the way, why is there's a picture of Jacques Perret (early 20th) next to the book of Jean-Jacques Perret (mid 17th) ? ^^

Thank you for the Sirhenry blade pictures. These are very interesting for me. Would it be possible to send me some bigger detailed pictures of this SirHenry razor blade?

I visited the depot of the “musée des art et métier” in Paris to look at Damascus steel samples of Sirhenry (damas de Sirhenry). Unfortunately the surface of these samples didn’t show any patterns, as seen on drawings of the “Sociéte d’encouragement pour l’industrie nationale”.

I forgot to list following other French cutler who made razors that have been sold as “Damascus razors”:

Bernard in Couard 1823: “Dépot de Rasoirs de Damas, de la fabrique du sieur Bernard, à Couard, près d’Autun (Saòne-et-Loire) ”

I'll ask the owner ;)

To the best of my knowledge, there were no razors made with Damascus steel.

James Stodart and Joseph Rodgers both advertised using Devangari script to claim they were using 'wootz' steel, but none of them exhibited the characteristic patterning of real Damascus steel.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...trade-card.jpg

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con...1/IMG_8172.jpg

George Wostenholm and several different French manufacturers produced blades with etchings meant to mimic the look, but it was wholly artificial. It was done by painting or stamping the pattern onto the blade with something that resisted acid, then painting a highly corrosive acid over top that. The patterning was not a feature of the metal itself, but a decoration put on top of it.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...-ltd-ed-05.png

http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...-frameback.jpg

The lancets that Thaeris showed pictures of are corroded by blood left on the blades. It's a very typical pattern when liquid is left on the steel, and not a sign of patterning.

An example I have:

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con...dShepherd2.jpg

This razor was corroded by someone dying the scales black without any care for keeping the dye off the blade. You can clearly see the liquid patterns where the scales were pressed against the steel.

A closeup of the damage:

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con...rrosionCU2.jpg

This is a picture of the real deal:

Attachment 219880

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thaeris

By the way, why is there's a picture of Jacques Perret (early 20th) next to the book of Jean-Jacques Perret (mid 17th) ? ^^

---

That was my bad when I Googled it. They had a lot of other different things there that didn't apply to the name I typed in & didn't mean for that to happen. I'm never afraid to say "I SCREWED UP". Too late to take it out now.
BTW, I'm sorry.

Surely the layered effect is not relevant to whether the steel is Wootz or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlanII

Surely the layered effect is not relevant to whether the steel is Wootz or not?

---

At the most pedantic -- going back to word origins, the misunderstood word wook derived from ukku, supposedly meaning 'melted' -- you could argue that it doesn't matter. However, since the late 1700's it's been understood that wootz specifically referred to steel that exhibits that exact patterning. Damascus is inarguable.

It is not the same thing as pattern welded steel. Rather, it's steel that is poured out of the crucible and shaped like any other, but exhibits that characteristic pattern. Pattern welded steel, as often seen in fancy custom knives and high end kitchen knives, is made very differently. There's lots of Youtube videos of how it's done, but the short version is that the pattern is created in the process of welding multiple different steel formulations together and then giving the finished product a light acid bath to show off the different layers. Real wootz is a single-source steel of one formulation.

To add just a bit to this, it has been speculated that impurities could play an important role in the formation of patterning and properties upon cooling. Also, some people have done some characterization on authentic damascus samples and found nanomaterials inside: http://www.hefajstos.agh.edu.pl/files/[2006]%20Carbon%20nanotubes%20in%20an%20ancient%20Damasc us%20sabre%20-%20M.%20Reibold.pdf

In a gazette from the year 1787 I found the note that the French cutler Léthien sold “guaranteed true Damascus” razors (vrai Damas à garantie) for up to two and a half times the price of his “mechanical Damascus” razor blades (damas corroyé & raffiné au feu).

This differentiation between “true Damascus” and “mechanical Damascus” is notable and begs the question what kind of steel Léthien used to produce these “guaranteed true Damascus blades”.

I found an earlier source documenting that Léthien imported Damascus sabres from Constantinople in 1786 to make knives “dites à coulisse”.

From this I conclude that the said “guaranteed true Damascus” razors were also made from these sabres and as such are possibly the first West European razor blades to be made of true Damascus steel.

My aim is to find an example of one of these Léthien “guaranteed true Damascus” blades. I would be grateful to anyone who can assist me in my search.

Thanks

Richard Rechsteiner

I just acquired a set of four of these. I'm not sure if they are simply pattern welded or more like real damascus, but they are very interesting regardless. As best I know Lichtenberger was a cutler active in Strasbourg, possibly during the Empire period. Anyway, here are some pictures of the steel.

Attachment 237374

Attachment 237375

Attachment 237376

I don't know if this is true or imitation. I cannot feel it with a fingernail. I suspect imitation..
Horn scales, dealt by Curley of NY.

Attachment 237377Attachment 237378Attachment 237379Attachment 237380

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

I just acquired a set of four of these. I'm not sure if they are simply pattern welded or more like real damascus, but they are very interesting regardless. As best I know Lichtenberger was a cutler active in Strasbourg, possibly during the Empire period. Anyway, here are some pictures of the steel.

Attachment 237374

Attachment 237375

Attachment 237376

---

In my opinion, those are. I had a knife from Lichtenberger, it seemed to be a quite nice family of cutlers and surgeon tools makers.

This Lecollier however has an acid etched blade, not damascus. A quite common practice on french framebacks :)

I don't know however if at the time the "damas" they were talking about was only wootz cast steel, or if it involved the modern notion of simply different kind of steel twisted and worked together.

If so it would seems quite natural to have some odd paterns, not looking like vintage wootz at all. :shrug:

Perret's razor ( no damascus blade)
Attachment 294053
Attachment 294054

This is awesome! Thanks for sharing!

Very worn but it's the only one I see since I'm interested in cutlery (and I live in France). So I bought it, a bit expensive compared to its condition, but I could not let it go

A recently bought razor. I was not sure that it was really Damascus before the purchase, but after a microscopic examination, I am now 99 percent sure. The drawing is random, a whiter metal forms the drawing, it is always present despite the grinding. We see that the razor is not industrial and high quality (it's still a sign). No indication of the cutler's name Lussan à St Sauge (the razor could be made by a specialist cutler and branded with the punch of the dealer). I just find "Jean Lussan surgeon at the hospice of St Sauge", (maybe a member of the family.The photos are not very clear but we can see the damask, revealed only on the edge, the rest of the blade is mirror polished
Attachment 294491

Degrand née (born) Gurgey à Marseille, before cleaning
Attachment 295822
Attachment 295823

Attachment 295824
Attachment 295825