george wolstenholm and sons

Hello everyone. Purchased this razor at an antique store for under $20. There's a lot of dirt and grime and a minimal amount of light surface rust. Aside from that there is a small chip in the blade . It also came with the original box. The scales appear to be made of tortoise shell, but I'm hoping someone here can shed light on that for me. The scales are in decent shape for the age, but as you can see in the picture there are a few chips in it. I know I took a bit of a risk when I purchased this razor, but I also know that it's an old razor and might be of value. I'm not asking for an appraisal as I know that goes against forum rules. But I would like to know your opinion if it is worth restoring and bread knifing the razor to bring back a shaving edge.Attachment 222759Attachment 222760

Sure anything is worth a shot if you want it as a learning opportunity. This is going to be a lot of work given the damage to the edge and the corrosion. Odds are good that the scales are off-gassing, considering the corrosion on the blade so they probably should be replaced. Breadknifing of this smiling blade should NOT be done like a knife cutting bread. That is, it should not be done with the blade held perpendicular to the hone as that will produce a straight edge no longer parallel with the smiling spine.

You'll find that 99.99% of Everything pertaining to straight razors is Personal Preference.

How much do you know about honing? Bread-knifing is a drastic restoration process and if not done properly will ruin the razor.

Personally I'd work on removing the chips first and see what I have before worrying about the rest of the clean up. If you can't get a good edge then you are wasting your time cleaning up the blade.

With that said: From the looks of those chips you'll be getting into the stabilizer which can be dealt but it takes skill.

There can be things lurking underneath, and it's going to depend on how 'cleaned up' you want the razor. I don't mind some battle scars showing.

I hope that you find that it will take a nice edge and will cleanup to your expectations. :tu

You got some good advise already, by the picture provided it looks to me that the scales are stained horn, a common practice to make them look like tortoise shell. The scales restoration will be much easier then the blade, JMHO.

I've never bread knifed a razor before. I've honed two razors to a comfortable shave. So I'm very inexperienced. Which is why I would potentially look at having someone restore the razor for me to include a bread knife, only if the razor would be worth more (perhaps to a collector for example).

I'll have to see what vids I can find on honing a wedge shape razor as this will be new to me. I've only honed hollow ground razors so far. I'll clean up the gunk and rust, then see about what I can do with the chip in the edge of the razor.

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Originally Posted by relli1130

I've never bread knifed a razor before. I've honed two razors to a comfortable shave. So I'm very inexperienced. Which is why I would potentially look at having someone restore the razor for me to include a bread knife, only if the razor would be worth more (perhaps to a collector for example).

I'll have to see what vids I can find on honing a wedge shape razor as this will be new to me. I've only honed hollow ground razors so far. I'll clean up the gunk and rust, then see about what I can do with the chip in the edge of the razor.

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Please read Glen's warning at the start of this series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btrOjC0S2gM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNUyRj3isC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhb7dGtSe3Q

When he's talking about a 'heel hook' here's a good picture of one:

Attachment 222763

I have only had to breadknife razors with severly (1/16") frowned edges. I just use a good coarse stone. All the pipe razors that I have seen, like yours, have a slight upturn at the toe end of the edge that is pretty useful for keeping the corner off your skin when whipping around your face and I would recommend maintaining that upturn if you can. It is one of the several features that I love about my pipe razors.

I've had a difficult time putting a shaving edge on this knife. Went thru my normal progression as I would with most razors. The hollow ground razors seem much easier to put a shaving edge on them. This razor is a near-wedge I think.

I've tried setting the bevel with one layer of tape, going through 1k, then 4k and 8k Norton. But I just can't seem to get it sharp at all.

So I tried adding another layer of tape, hoping to make the bevel more acute I guess. But that didn't work either. I must be doing something wrong...

I would not recommend sending that out for restoration because it's going to cost more then the final product will be worth. That's a good candidate for a first restoration though if you want to go that direction. The scales look like dyed horn so you shouldnt have to worry about off-gassing. As far as honing it, you probably don't have a good bevel set. If that's a wedge you will probably need to put a good amount of effort into removing that chip and setting the bevel. There is no point in going through your stone progression until the bevel is fully set. Be sure to use tape while working on the bevel or it could cause a lot of spine wear.

I've taken care of the chip already. The steel seems quite soft, and I tried a bread knifing technique that worked well. This is not a true wedge razor. Like I said above, probably a near wedge or quarter hollow. Is one layer of tape all that is required?

It just seemed like I was on my 1k King stone forever when trying to hone this razor. As If I would never get a proper bevel set. On my hollow ground razors, it's pretty clear to me when the bevel is set - I can feel it. On this razor, it LOOKS like the bevel is set, but the edge seems dull. It's weird. Maybe I just need to stay on the 1K longer? Try very very light strokes to hone that edge? I don't know. Maybe a question I should post in the honing forums...

Will it shave arm hair from the 1k?

not even close

That's why I don't bread knife for chips. just keep working it on the 1k till it comes around. Can you take a pic that shows the grind on that blade?

Correction. So it will shave arm hair, but not comfortably at all. I was a bit surprised. I think the razor either has a slight warp, or I applied a bit too much pressure when honing this razor. You can see the bevel grind is a bit uneven in the 2nd pic.Attachment 224764Attachment 224765Attachment 224766

Try wiping the razor off, use that sharpie I see and apply it to the edge. Then us 3 layers of electrical tape and go back to the 1K. Use 'some' pressure but not a lot.

The tape will help you concentrate on the 'Edge' more. After 20 or so passes, take a good look and see where you are. I do hope you have a loupe or some form of magnification to check on the progress of the edge as the naked eye can't always see enough.

You will need to replace the tape Often! If you don't before you know it, you'll be seeing shiny metal on the spine :banghead:

Keep the pics coming.

As you are finding out #1 as Glen warned bread knifing can make it next to impossible to get the razor back to shaving. #2 heavier grinds are a whole different matter compared to hollow grinds.

Looks to me that you chose a difficult razor for a newbie honer. However, now that you've started you might as well carry on and just keep going away at the 1K until you have a proper bevel set along the whole length. You may need to use a couple of layers of tape and be prepared to replace it at intervals when you see it wearing away. If you don't already have one, invest in a loupe - this will help you see where the bevel scratches are going. You could also try the sharpie test to establish if the whole bevel is hitting the stones.

Ideally you should use a rolling honing action to maintain the smile - this may also help avoid getting a wide bevel in places but it looks to me that you are not going to do a lot about keeping the bevel a constant width.

A couple of points - one already pointed out - if the scales are horn they will not be giving off gas (that Celluloid) therefore you can continue to use them. My second point is in reference to the potential for creating a hook at the heel - this happens with razors that have stabilizers - yours doesn't, therefore it's not an issue.

Edit - looks like Cudarunner beat me to some points - however we seem to agree on a few things.

Ok. I'll do exactly as stated. Use 3 layers of tape, 20 or so passes with 1k using some pressure and check the bevel. Yes, I do have a loupe :)

Question though about using 3 layers of tape. Is there any pointe at which I should revert to only 1 layer of tape? Or if I finally do set a bevel with 3 layers, continue to use 3 layers on my 4k and 8k stones?

I opted not to use Glen's method of bread knifing. Instead I followed the instructions showed in this video: It seemed to me to be easier and might remove less metal.

Thanks for your assistance!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnocPdAvfzg

[QUOTE=UKRob;1589019]Looks to me that you chose a difficult razor for a newbie honer. However, now that you've started you might as well carry on and just keep going away at the 1K until you have a proper bevel set along the whole length.

Definitely a newbie here. To date I've put a comfortable shaving edge on about 10 razors that I've purchased. All of which had hollow grinds, and were much easier to hone. I picked this one up on the cheap, and found another just like it for about $10.00 which I have yet to attempt to hone. My plan was to use this one as a learning experience, hope to get it to where it will shave, then take what I've learned and apply that to the other "Pipe" razor I purchased. The 2nd one is in much better condition with no chips in the shaving edge. Just needs a good polishing.

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You may or may not be able to drop down on the amount of tape. With that said I 'think' that you'll be using no less than 2 layers and YES once you start up in grits you'll need to maintain the same amount of layers of tape and Keep Changing Tape!

Post pics as you go!

In my experience the King 1k cuts much quicker with slurry. Once the bevel comes together, dilute down to plain water and refine the edge until it shaves arm hair easily. On a near wedge with damage, expect to use dozens of laps at each stage - sometimes many dozens. You are working with much wider bevels than on a hollow ground and much remove correspondingly more steel - and that Victorian-era Sheffield steel is normally very hard.

http://www.coticole.be/wedges.hmtl is a great reference for honing in general. There is a pdf document you can download on how to calculate bevel angle. I would not get hung up on how many layers of tape you use on a near wedge. I probably restore 2 or 3 Sheffield near wedges a week. Most are in pretty bad shape to start. Almost all start with 3 layers of tape to see where things are and end with 2 layers. Using the bevel calculator you'll see the bevel angle is still in the 16 or 17 degrees range even with 2 layers.
The bevel I can see in your photos looks like an uneven grind. That little wedge is plenty stiff and I doubt you can force the bevel to look like that. The blade will not flex like a hollow grind. The unevenness is just cosmetic.
If you have breadknifed the blade bringing it back on a 1K can be a ton of work. I use a 325DMT like Glen uses in his video. His video series on breadknifing is great. Watch it multiple times. There is just too much there to absorb in one viewing. The DMT is very aggressive and can create a crumbly edge with too much pressure but it will get the bevels to meet much quicker. Don't be afraid to put up the blade up and come back to it later.
Good luck,
Karl

Better link...

http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html

OK. one hour in and here is what I found:

1. 3 layers of tape applied. Started at 1k and applied red marker to the edge. I took 3 straight passes on each side. The permanent marker revealed that the middle of the blade was hitting the hone, but not the heel or toe.

2. I tried "pushing" the heel and toe in following straight passes (applying pressure on heel and toe), and that didn't seem to do much good. I think the steel is too stiff to make any difference. Likely confirms karlej's response above.

3. I tried a "Rolling X" technique. Putting the blade at a 45 degree angle to the hone, then bringing the heel along an imaginary line down the hone, I would gently push the heel down while bringing the blade toward me. I would transfer the pressure toward the middle, then toward the toe as I completed the stroke. I would repeat this process during the push stroke. My permanent marker would reveal that I was finally making contact along the entire edge of the blade.

...So I think I need to continue using this technique, unless I get input otherwise. Unfortunately, I must have not set the bevel properly at the 1K level, because I progressed through 4k and 8K, and still can't get it to shave hair. I'm going to start over with the "Rolling X" as described above at the 1K until I can get it to pop hairs at the toe, middle, and heel. Then move to the 4K, ensure I'm popping hairs, and then finally the 8K.

A question though: on all of my hollow grind blades that I've done, I can get the edge to pass the HHT along all parts of the blade. Can I expect the same result on this razor? I know the HHT isn't the be all/end all of a razor's sharpness, but can a grind like this also pass the HHT?

Thanks
Jeff

First and foremost, if there isn't a set bevel then going further is a mute point.

Second, tests are just that 'tests' some work some don't, personally the HHT doesn't work for me.

Third, have you tried the TNT (thumb nail test) I find that very useful when setting a bevel. If you don't know what it is, wet your thumbnail on the hand opposite of the dominate hand then 'gently/weight of razor only' run the edge across the nail. It should be 'catching' all along, if it 'slides' anywhere you haven't got a bevel set yet.

I hope this helps.

Yes. I thought I had the bevel set, but obviously I was wrong. The thumbnail test kinda creeps me out. I'll give it a try, but the thought of the razor digging a bit too far in my thumbnail gives me the heebeegeebees! haha.

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Originally Posted by relli1130

Yes. I thought I had the bevel set, but obviously I was wrong. The thumbnail test kinda creeps me out. I'll give it a try, but the thought of the razor digging a bit too far in my thumbnail gives me the heebeegeebees! haha.

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Trust me, the razor won't cut deep at all!!! It'll only 'scratch' the surface. :tu

Well...success!

Started back at square one. 3 layers of tape, and 1k King.

1. What a learning experience this was for me. Clearly, the bevel was not properly set...Lesson #1! Always, always make sure the bevel is properly set. I could of saved myself a heck of a lot of time had I made sure of that...

2. It is amazing what a permanent marker and loupe can tell you. I took some pics of my progress showing how the marker was able to indicate where the blade edge was NOT hitting the hone.

Attachment 224776Attachment 224778

By paying close attention to my technique and water displacement, AND consistently applying more perm marker and checking the loupe frequently, I was able to see exactly what was happening to the edge. In reality, I found that my razor now has a much smaller, less noticeable edge. A new edge that is uniform below the previous edge.

I proceeded to the 4K once I was confident I had a new bevel set. Making sure my hones were free and clear of any debris, and changing tape before proceeding to the next grit. After the 4K, it was sharp, and shaving hairs, though catching a bit. I could see under the loupe several prominent scratches that I needed to remove. I continued on until those scratches were gone.

At 8 K, it was really neat to see how the edge went from a satin finish to a mirror like shine. I could see again that the scratches, especially the prominent ones were far less noticeable, if not removed completely. It was now shaving hairs off my arm easily.

You can't quite see it in the next photos, but under the loupe it is very apparent. A nice, consistent, mirror like cutting edge spans the entire length of the razor now. I took it to the strop, and let it hang a bit looser than normal. Applied light pressure when stropping, and was very pleased with the end result. The razor now passes the HHT all along the blade. Hairs catch and pop clean off with little pressure.


I hit the scales with some MAAS, buffed it out, and applied a little neatsfoot oil afterwards. Hopefully the oil will soak in a bit and rejuvenate the horn...


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I'm going to let my beard grow in a bit more before I try shaving with this. I'll report back tomorrow morning...

Thanks everyone for your input. It was critical to my success...

Congratulations! Looks like you're on top of it now.

If the scales are really dry, with checking or cracking inside and out, you can put the whole razor in neatsfoot oil for 10 - 15 minutes and then wipe off the excess and allow it to settle. I keep a small covered tray with 1/2" of oil in it for soaking scales and razors. If you don't have enough oil for immersion, you can use pipe cleaners, rags, q-tips, etc. to get a good coating inside and out. Let it set for a bit and then wipe off the excess as above. Too much exposure will soften the horn, but 10 - 15 minutes followed by a good wipedown won't hurt anything and the horn will be greatly improved.

This is my neatsfoot oil tank:

Attachment 224782

Sounding good. There is only One Test that really counts and that's the Shave Test! Let us know how it goes.

I hope I was of some help.

Enjoy the ride! It's a long strange trip but well worth the journey :tu

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Originally Posted by cudarunner

Sounding good. There is only One Test that really counts and that's the Shave Test! Let us know how it goes.

I hope I was of some help.

Enjoy the ride! It's a long strange trip but well worth the journey :tu

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No doubt! I did try the thumbnail test. I drug it across my left thumbnail and wet it like you said. It definitely "grabbed" my thumbnail. But there was a bit of discomfort that I felt. So I stopped.

Do you only perform the TNT on the "dead" part of the nail, or on the growing part too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by relli1130

Do you only perform the TNT on the "dead" part of the nail, or on the growing part too?

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I use the middle of the nail with the razor going at a 90 deg angle across the thumb.

By the way, I think that the 'discomfort' may have been a delusion! :w :shrug:

This has been an awesome thread to follow! Got a wealth of tips, info and reminders for my own honing technics.
Thanks to all who joined and helped with their knowledge and experience! It is much appreciated by more than just the OP! :tu

Looking forward to hearing about your test shave relli1130. Keep us posted!

sorry everyone. One of the moderators locked me out of my account for a week due to a perceived spam/ advertising thread that I started in the strop forum. Really wasnt my intention at all. Was just looking for some feedback on a specific strop with a youtube link provided for reference....Oh well, its good to be back...

Anyway, this was a great learning experience. And this razor is a fantastic shaver. Quite a different feel to it than your ordinary hollow grind. I like the weight of this razor, really feels like it cuts through my whiskers much easier. Special thanks to Cudarunner for all of your help.