Micro holes on modern production razor?

Hello gents, I have three modern razors that I have honed up to 12k and examined with my led 60X loop and noticed holes some shallow and some deep throughout the blades bevel. I am OCD about wiping the razor down in between each pass, when done shaving I strop on nylon to clean the edge, oil and store in a dry location. I don't have any water spots nor rust throughout the whole razor. So how could the bevel develop holes in the steel without rust like devils spit? What might be some other possibilities? I don't know anything about steel production but could there have been bubbles/air pockets develop while hardening?

Also they don't produce their own steel.

I will not mention the manufacturer because they are working with me I am just looking for additional possibilities while we figure this out.

Thank youAttachment 233003

Never heard of that, if you could post pix of the edge under magnification it would be helpful.

I tried sorry, to the naked eye it looks like debris from a suede strop

Without naming names.. are these artisan razors or something from Dovo, TI, Whacker, etc...?

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Originally Posted by MileMarker60

Without naming names.. are these artisan razors or something from Dovo, TI, Whacker, etc...?

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Negative, they are a artisans. I have three other razors of theirs and have zero issues, just great shaves. Plus they have since changed the thickness of the steel and shape of the blade.

:confused:Ummm. We might need to know that though, Tc
Personally I already know.

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

:confused:Ummm. We might need to know that though, Tc
Personally I already know.

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Are there certain makers who have this common problem and what is the problem? thanks

Do all 3 of your razors have this same problem or just one?

Edit:
Sorry I missed the part that said your other 3 are fine.
Something does sound "off" about it.
Personally, I would get it replaced

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Originally Posted by MileMarker60

Do all 3 of your razors have this same problem or just one?

Edit:
Sorry I missed the part that said your other 3 are fine.
Something does sound "off" about it.
Personally, I would get it replaced

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Yes all 3 have the same problem one has it more than the others but all have micro holes. I have a total of 6 blades from them in 8/8 3 and 3 first set (which are the ones I am asking this question about) was made at different times and different metal thickness, same 01 steel 62hrc, I believe. There would need to be some surface rust to indicate the holes were created by rust and if not there is another problem correct? Thanks

I've sent a PM to an expert in metallurgy. Particularly as applied to razors. We'll see if he has time to opine on the mystery.

Pictures would be very helpful. There are so many questions I would like to ask...but pictures first, please.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I've sent a PM to an expert in metallurgy. Particularly as applied to razors. We'll see if he has time to opine on the mystery.

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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Pictures would be very helpful. There are so many questions I would like to ask...but pictures first, please.

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So sorry I would love to I don't have a micro scope.

Okay, are these holes visible with the naked eye? You've eliminated rust as a likely contender. Your shaving rituals sound more than adequate to prevent that. It sounds as if the blade shaves well (?).

Are these finished/polished blades, when did you notice them? Was this discovery with a 60x view by chance or was there something else going on?

It could be a chance defect in the steel from smelting. Therefore it was merely an unlucky segment of the parent bar of steel. It happens sometimes. It could be scale that didn't get entirely removed but this is not very likely because this sounds like a ground and polished blade. Things like scale should have been long removed.

It's very difficult to offer you more than a guess without seeing the material.

It might be helpful to know the company that smelts/manufactures the O-1. If that's not proprietary information...where was it purchased?

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Okay, are these holes visible with the naked eye? You've eliminated rust as a likely contender. Your shaving rituals sound more than adequate to prevent that.

Are these finished/polished blades, when did you notice them? Was this discovery with a 60x view by chance or was there something else going on?

It could be a chance defect in the steel from smelting. Therefore it was merely an unlucky segment of the parent bar of steel. It happens sometimes. It could be scale that didn't get entirely removed but this is not very likely because this sounds like a ground and polished blade. Things like scale should have been long removed.

It's very difficult to offer you more than a guess without seeing the material.

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The razors have a SS 12k finish on them so they are mirror close. I noticed tiny spots on the bevel with the naked eye when drying off the blade in between stones, then investigated with the 60X loop to my shock micro holes. I would say they are in the middle of matte and polished finish. They shave well but the edge has not met the holes yet. I honestly never looked that close at the bevel since there was never any presence of rust or even a water spot. Thanks

Are they casting their blanks? Porosity is very common in casting.

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Originally Posted by 32t

Are they casting their blanks? Porosity is very common in casting.

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I think they get bar stock steel.

I took a photo through a loupe once. You have to get the light right and it helps if you have 3 hands, but it is possible. The trick was getting the camera (using close up setting) at the right distance from the loupe, and keeping the loupe the right distance from the blade. Wooooo it's even hard to type :<0) If you have a small eye piece on your loop forget it.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

I took a photo through a loupe once. You have to get the light right and it helps if you have 3 hands, but it is possible. The trick was getting the camera (using close up setting) at the right distance from the loupe, and keeping the loupe the right distance from the blade. Wooooo it's even hard to type :<0) If you have a small eye piece on your loop forget it.

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Awesome suggestion thank you!

Just curious, if I understand this correctly all three blades have this problem. Have you heard back from the maker yet ? If three out of three are like this, it seems to me that you are probably not the only one who has gotten such blades, and as noticed and reported it. I would think they would have some knowledge of the problem and could explain what has caused it .

I added some photos via phone camera and an led 30X loop please bear with me. The photo show what looks like scratches on the bevel but with a 60X loop you can see they are holes that have grabbed some grit while honing. I just re honed this razor starting at 220 all the way to 12k and the holes are still there!

O-1 material has been used by many to make some beautiful razors and knives. However some artisan makers may not understand the heat treat and quenching problems that come with using O-1. You can study this from a Crucible handbook or study it online at crucible.com. although the problems you mention are common when O-1 is improperly heat treated and not quenched properly. I am not saying this is what happened, but with over 18 years as a machinist and tool&die maker it is not the first time I have seen or heard of these problems. Hope this may help a little.

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Originally Posted by Ron187524

O-1 material has been used by many to make some beautiful razors and knives. However some artisan makers may not understand the heat treat and quenching problems that come with using O-1. You can study this from a Crucible handbook or study it online at crucible.com. although the problems you mention are common when O-1 is improperly heat treated and not quenched properly. I am not saying this is what happened, but with over 18 years as a machinist and tool&die maker it is not the first time I have seen or heard of these problems. Hope this may help a little.

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Thank you! What you said is what I was thinking in theory!

To my eye, you may have run into some microscopic inclusions that leave pores behind when they are dragged away from the steel by the stones. In my time grinding steel bars, there are several pieces of steel I remember, that have proven to be a poorly mixed solution with inclusions and undissolved mystery steel globs that are not homogenous from the mill. It all appeared to be fine and normal as a flat surface ground bar, until a process change showed the difference. The spec sheet said it was what I bought, but occasionally there are acceptable deviations, at least to the steel manufacturer. They can always sell you another bar of steel.

It could be microscopic porosity, but for either problem, why do these only appear along the bevel and are not seen elsewhere on the ground surfaces of the hollows? This is not a laminated blade and there should be an even distribution of such flaws, not simply limited to the very center of the bar and only showing up along the bevel. An additional strange feature is that these pores seem to miss the working edge too.

I would call them flaws, but of the non-fatal type (referencing a Japanese way of judging a blade's potential, i.e. they do not cross the edge and compromise it as a tool) and fully capable of being used normally. You will always know these pores are there. Shave, hone, shave, hone and continue observing what happens to them. If they are small they will disappear (others might appear). If they are larger edges of bigger flaws they will open up and be more visible. You still have a working razor that will tell its story over time. It's not something I'd toss in the junk box. I'd tell the maker and share this information with them. If it was an O-1 razor with my name on it, I would want to know.

I don't know that the heat treatment is the problem. This is not to say that it couldn't be. Perhaps (cautiously perhaps) not enough material was removed after heat treating, perhaps there is some decarb'd steel. My experience, for normal O-1, in my time heat treating steels, is that it is not a tricky or delicate steel and is quite predictable with few surprises, except those that no one could anticipate. I don't know enough about the heat history of the blade in the hands of the maker to be sure of any possibility in this variable.

It would be really good to know what the maker did to this bar of steel from beginning to end.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

To my eye, you may have run into some microscopic inclusions that leave pores behind when they are dragged away from the steel by the stones. In my time grinding steel bars, there are several pieces of steel I remember, that have proven to be a poorly mixed solution with inclusions and undissolved mystery steel globs that are not homogenous from the mill. It all appeared to be fine and normal as a flat surface ground bar, until a process change showed the difference. The spec sheet said it was what I bought, but occasionally there are acceptable deviations, at least to the steel manufacturer. They can always sell you another bar of steel.

It could be microscopic porosity, but for either problem, why do these only appear along the bevel and are not seen elsewhere on the ground surfaces of the hollows? This is not a laminated blade and there should be an even distribution of such flaws, not simply limited to the very center of the bar and only showing up along the bevel. An additional strange feature is that these pores seem to miss the working edge too.

I would call them flaws, but of the non-fatal type (referencing a Japanese way of judging a blade's potential, i.e. they do not cross the edge and compromise it as a tool) and fully capable of being used normally. You will always know these pores are there. Shave, hone, shave, hone and continue observing what happens to them. If they are small they will disappear (others might appear). If they are larger edges of bigger flaws they will open up and be more visible. You still have a working razor that will tell its story over time. It's not something I'd toss in the junk box. I'd tell the maker and share this information with them. If it was an O-1 razor with my name on it, I would want to know.

I don't know that the heat treatment is the problem. This is not to say that it couldn't be. Perhaps (cautiously perhaps) not enough material was removed after heat treating, perhaps there is some decarb'd steel. My experience, for normal O-1, in my time heat treating steels, is that it is not a tricky or delicate steel and is quite predictable with few surprises, except those that no one could anticipate. I don't know enough about the heat history of the blade in the hands of the maker to be sure of any possibility in this variable.

It would be really good to know what the maker did to this bar of steel from beginning to end.

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Thank you for this very clarifying post! These all came from the same bar, 1 razor is by far worse than the other 2. I have received great shaves from these razors. Just knowing there are these holes bothers me way more than than the function of the razors. The makers have already worked with me over the issue. I am glad I posted this so I can understand what is possibly going on with the steel again thank you all :)

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Originally Posted by dshaves

I would say they are in the middle of matte and polished finish. They shave well but the edge has not met the holes yet.

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I do not see any holes on your pictures, but here's what can happen:

• moisture can get trapped in them then oxidize the steel and expand them
• if they don't go through the middle of the blade by the time they reach the edge you may have honed past the hole and have a plain solid steel
• if they reach the edge you'll have to hone past them to a clean straight edge again