How do I know if my razor needs to be re-ground?
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How do I know if my razor needs to be re-ground?
Well a picture would help. Essentially a razor needs to be reground to reshape the blade to refuse the appearance of hone wear along the spine and to refuse the amount of steel along the blade. In part this reduces the amount of steel that is removed at honing and narrows the bevel. It makes the razor easier to hone and strop. It also make the razor easier to shave with to a certain degree. I cannot help but wonder if you really mean reground or if you are actually talking about having your bevel reset, and establishing a full apex all the way along the cutting edge. They are very different activities but the language can be confusing at times.
Here are some pics
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...77c082f940.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...699b1af67d.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...8919f072c2.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...4642f1eb36.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...0a6eec0ada.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...0f38e953ac.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...986a7f0fcf.jpg
I know less than nothing about that type of grind. I have faith that someone will be along to educate us both. I'm not sure it it has an uneven grind or uneven wear.
Did it come like that ???
Looks like someone had a field day with that one.
I think it can be honed but will take a good bit of work and knowledge.
It looks unfinished. Interesting design though. That bevel is a little wonky. Where and under what pretense did you get it( custom or vintage) ?
Somebody ground the crap out of the toe on one side. Could we see the other side of the blade? Hope you got it cheap or free.
Slawman
Looks as if it was repetitively honed with uneven pressure or the guy who made it ground the razor with some uneven geometry or combination of both. The razor looks like a less than professional custom job but what do I know:shrug:
To me that looks like poor grind work resulting in uneven hone wear and bevel.
Unfortunately, the toe came like that. I got this razor from Japan Woodworker. It was listed as Blue Paper steel...I paid $230.00. Here is the most embarrassing admission. I had originally sent this razor to Lynn and Co. at SRD to get shave ready. I received the razor in shave ready condition from SRD, which is what I paid for. It shaved for the first few days, then after I took it to the linen strop I just received from Tom Nagura http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...f458498261.jpg and it seemed to DULL the edge....what the heck?!
That's when I proceeded to take it back to the hone...Naniwa SS 1k–I have the 1k 5k 10k & 12k. Of course not sure if I did or did not lap my stones properly or sufficiently. What you see is the result...not sure if I was putting too much pressure on the blade?!
I really need some guidance, was I supposed to treat the linen with something before stropping?! I thought I was more knowledgeable than this.
Please send it to someone familiar with honing Japanese blades and see if they can't re set the bevel and bring it back to par.
Ooooooo!!!! Looks like someone tried to freehand that on a grinding wheel!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
I would say your stropping technique killed the edge in the sense of rolling the edge to make it dull. You will not really see that but you will certainly notice and feel it the next shave.Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
Really there is no pressure when honing. Mainly blade weight for the most part but there is some light pressure but not much I assure you.
I would look to folks near you to attend a meet to get tips and actual hands on honing through the progression for valuable assistance. It will certainly pay off for sure.
Just because the wear looks uneven is not an indication for a regrind. It's most likely uneven looking because the blade had a warp or some sort of unevenness. When it was properly honed, those high spots were knocked down leaving a resulting even bevel (with un-even looking wear). Because Lynn was able to hone it and it shaved well is proof of this.
I agree with Michael70 that the stropping probably killed the edge. I am a big fan of the fire hose because it works so well but if improper technique is used, it can also knock down an edge. I believe then taking it to the stones further exacerbated the situation. If it was honed and shaved well before, it can be brought back there again. :tu
what did it look like when it came back from SRD
I think the back looks ok still
but the front looks like you heavy handedly over honed it with uneven pressure "using I don't know what system" as the Kamisori honing technique puts about a 7-10:1 ratio for honing back to front sides to minimize the wear on the front
if the edge was right to start with by Lynn & the guys even if badly stropped would have only needed a light honing
put it in the lessons learnt bucket & send back to Lynn & the guys to get it back on track
if you have trouble stropping maybe you shouldn't be honing yet JMHO
I personally found when 1st using a Kamisori that it was better to use the strop on the bench to keep it flat as it feel a lot different when hanging
looks like a nice razor still
To me not knowing much about a Kamisori is that the bevel is large at the toe and heel. Not even throughout. Or at least mainly even set. But I must admit I have a few straights that under the scope are not consistent width along the edge.
It is just that your kami is very easily seen and all kami's I have seen have a pretty much uniform consistent bevel edge. I would send it back like folks have stated to Lynn to get back on track. Seriously though, post a thread for folks in your area to respond to for a get together advertising for those who are accomplished honers to teach the trade to you. I have found that the razor community is more than happy to meet and teach and even hone for free! This is the best bunch of folks you could meet. Plus it will greatly serve you in your endeavors to become accomplished as well at honing. Then one day you can pay it forward.
Here is a picture I found online that has a great picture of the bevel. As you will see I think this kami for the most part has a uniformed width bevel along the entire edge for the most part. I assume a kami is no different for the most part like a str8. This is why your kami to me looked way off with that heel being so pronounced. Check the link below for the picture of this bevel.
http://jenesrazors.com/wp-content/ga...i/img_9866.jpg
I know you will get it worked out and please post back when you do. I am curious as to what is discovered as the culprit. But I would suspect the first was heavy handed stropping that rolled the edge at first then it was downhill from there. But you are in good company, we have all done this!!!! :rofl2:
Is there a video you guys can recommend with a good hone progression that may be well suited for my kami?
This one from Glen may help, its the only one I know of but since I dont play with kamisori I havent really looked into the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNCVe3Alye8
There is a Part 2 also.
:gl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNCVe3Alye8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIQ3_6Cs5o
A few thoughts.
A somewhat expensive and nearly new razor may not be the best practice piece.
Perhaps send it out and get it shave ready.
Take it with you to the next meet you attend and learn the technique hands on.
I just did this one recently and I explain about correcting bevel issues on Kamisori
It may help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m87oGTAKV7I
I have a much more traditional vid that has been on my channel for a few years
Edit:
(hehehe which the guys already linked above :) )
Hint:
Honing a Kamisori correctly is about knowing how to shift the pressure,
GS, not surprising they linked to your video—which I love by the way. You have always been helpful to me.
Not surprising, my technique was totally off. I was honing this razor as though it was a western style with proportional progressions. I was doing like 10/10, when I really I should have been doing the progression you have in your video 5 or 7/1. That is maybe my biggest mistake?
Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
The progression is actually of minimal importance, some people use a flat progression of 7:1 some use lower some use 1:1
The important part is the Pressure switches
On a Western razor we create "Torque" toward the edge while honing by using the corners on the tang..
A Kamisori you have to use your Fingers and Thumbs to create that torque, and to make it more difficult the pressure has to roll from front to back as you are honing..
This pressure variation while honing Kamisori has to be learned, and that is what keeps the bevel even and allows for the edge to become VERY keen but still be smooth to the face..
There's another consideration here - whether tape was used when it was originally honed. It looks to me as if you honed without tape and have caused some hone wear. It's always useful to know if the person who honed it last used tape - but if you can't establish that, assume they did and do the same - if you find this is creating a secondary bevel you don't want, then take the tape off - no harm done.
I specifically requested—when Lynn asked about this razor—for him to NOT use tape. I don't necessarily have anything against it, however I don't want to keep applying tape myself whenever I re-hone. My research has showed me and Lynn himself said in one of his posts that if you use tape you have to always use tape to correctly work off that established bevel other-wise you end up creating a new bevel/edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Because it is MY personal razor I don't really care about the hone wear. "To tape or not to tape" there are as many views on this as there are people using straights. I just wanted to keep it simple and consistent at the end of the day.
GS, I am intrigued by this pressure switching you speak of. Do you have any videos showing/explaining this?
Seems to me your job if you chose to accept it is to even out what you made uneven. The selective use of pressure to re establish an even wear pattern. So before you actually rehone the blade your going to restore the bevel to a state that will hone evenly. At this point I wouldn't use tape until you have that sorted out, then once its reasonably even you may add tape and begin the actual honing process as per Glens video. Its going to take some analysis of whats happening on the stone but I think if you take it on you will learn a ton about your razor. Go slow and study whats happening and I bet you will make her whole again.
Thank you for in then encouragement!! I AM going to try and correct it...one thing I noticed—not sure if any else has experienced this; occasionally when I am honing on my Naniwa SS 1k I hear a loud squeak or squeal coming from the stone as I am moving the blade back and forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorfaust
@Glen Thank you so much for your videos...these have given me really good education and a modicum of confidence especially since there are relatively few Kami honing vids out there, and far fewer GOOD ones.
@drMatt357 I would encourage every here to look at your vids as well. Your like the Alton Brown of razors! and that's a good thing!!!
Maybe the Naniwa 1k is screaming in pain. I would like to emphasize that you try not to use heavy pressure restoring that razor. Please keep it on the lighter side its better to do more strokes and evaluate your progress than realizing you suddenly burned through too much steel. Take it slow and easy and good luck.
I think you're biggest mistake was in honing the tang. In technical terms you created a wibbly wobbly bevvlly wevvly geometry.Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
A regrind will not replace the metal you removed.
Make sure you understand what needs to be done if you plan to put it on stones again yourself.
All Japanese single bevel tools should have very little honing on the ura or 'back"
If I needed one reason to explain why I am on this site, this summarily explains it.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
Question, should it be able to pass the arm hair test coming off the 1k or should I continue on to the 5k
It should easily be shaving arm hair at 1k before moving up. To be honest that is a very nice looking razor, you may be better to send it out to someone like Glenn (gssixgun) or Lynn to correct any issues before they get worse. Would be worth every penny IMHO. Learn to strop and shave first and foremost. Hope this helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
When I sit down and begin a complete honing job on any one of my razors. I pretend that the 1k is going to be the only stone I have. This mind game I play with myself forces me to do the best possible job on that stone until it can give no more in terms of sharpness. The when I am happy I just go through my progressions and I am usually satisfied with the result. This helps me not cheat and leave the 1k stone too soon as that usually results in a ridiculous amount of time trying to complete the edge on a higher grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by P8TRIOT
Well guys I DID IT! It now passes he arm-hair test AND shave test which was reasonably comfortable; I was trepidatious on going back to strop it—just too excited!Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorfaust
Here is the result a near mirror edge finish; bear in mind the I had already done the damage on the initial two attempts but the edge is now much much better and —in my view—more professional.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...31a08c49f1.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...3f811cfe5d.jpg
Special thanks to drMatt357, Razorfaust & last but not least gssixgun for arming me with all that I now know regarding proper honing technique—Glen, I learned the correct pressure and torque you were talking about, that was literally the key to my success!
I LOVE THIS COMMUNITY!
I'm glad it shaves well in the end that's what matters. You certainly will know how to treat her better the next time. Good save.