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I have read that it does not matter what steel is used in arazor. I have a ZY and a vintage Friodur. The Henckels seems to shave muchcloser that the ZY. It does have a thinner grind. Is this all in my head, likea wine snob, or does steel and grind matter somewhat?
I'm not an expert on the matter but my 2 cents worth is i love Henckels. They seem to hone very good and shave great. I mostly use vintage Shefffields and Henckels. love them both. I'm not familiar with The ZY so i can't say how they perform for me. Maybe one of the senior members can jump in.
Actually, they both matter a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent375HH
Steel quality and heat treatment is important because that will determine how strong of an edge your razor will have. Poor steel quality will be less uniform and a poor heat treatment may be too brittle or soft. A careful balance is required for optimum performance.
Grinds are important because of the delicate edge geometry. An uneven grind can make uneven bevel angles at the edge. This will cause uneven sharpness along the edge. A uniform angle along the entire edge is desirable because then the behavior of the cutting edge at the heel, middle and toe will be the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent375HH
I would quit reading from that source :p
Really and truly I think gssixgun has a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I think today any country that produces steel is capable of producing a steel alloy that is suitable for making straight razors from. The alloys that work well have been known for a very long time. You don't need fancy alloys to make a perfectly good straight razor blade from. You do need steel alloy made to a consistently high standard run after run after run.
The bigger question is do the actual makers buy the proper alloys, heat treat it properly, grind it properly and do that on a consistent basis. That usually does not happen when you try and make a product to the lowest possible price point.
Bob
The steel used is a major factor as well as the heat treatment.you can have a excellent steel such as O1 tool steel and not get the benefits from it by improperly heat treating it.I recently saw a YouTube video of yet another backyard expert making a knife in a day or something like that that used a oxy/acetylene torch to heat a blade to none magnetic and then quench.He just put out bogus info,O1 needs a soak at 1500 for about 7 min before quench to get the benefits of it to come into play.The heat treat is the soul of the steel.
So would more than one heat to 1500 then quench make a difference. I belive it is charlie lewis whose video I watched, he did the heat quench process 3 times. I ask because I'm currently making a razor with O1 and want to properly do heat treatment.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKwildman
Are you forging or working with anealed steel and doing stock removal,you can triple harden and also triple temper,if your forging you first need to do a normalizing cycle to relieve the stress that has built up in the steel,if stock removal with fresh steel you can skip that step.I double my hardening cycle and triple temper.No matter what you still need to soak at temp for 5-7 min.Just heating to non magnetic won't cut it.
The make up of the steel, the way it's heat treated and the grind will all play a part in the quality of the shave. I've shaved with a ZY and when we'll honed do shave OK but quality steel from a company like Henckels is going to win every time.
That was my impression, but I see posts from people who swear their Gold Dollar is as good as anything else. My Friodur shaves nicer than my ZY does, but the grind is a bit uneven and thicker on the ZY.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmrson
Not all Gold Dollars are made of stainless either. I've yet to see the quality of the metal called into question, the problem most commonly reported with the carbon steel Gold Dollars is bad geometry/grind quality issues.
Once those are sorted out, to the best of my knowledge a carbon steel Gold Dollar will give a nice shave, and you won't be taking it back to the hones every 10-15 shaves. This is why a contingent of users actually use them as the base for modification, experimentation, and toying around. With a little work, they can* be good. Never a Henkels or Wade & Butcher, but passable.
My understanding is that a ZY razor is stainless, which invariably is going to be softer than carbon. Softer steel makes for something harder to refine to the levels we need for shaving, and of course less edge retention. As a general rule of thumb, I avoid stainless steels whenever possible.
The way I understand it hardness is a matter of tempering. The heat treatment determines the hardness regardless of the material, be it HC or SS. Stainless steels are more abrasion resistant than high carbon, which can make them appear to more difficult to hone to a shaving edge. Quality stainless steel razors from the old established companies, or from high end artisans, are right up there with high carbon razors from the same sources. OTOH, you get what you pay for. A $2.00 razor won't be as good as a $100.00 razor out of the box. IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
I am going to ask the dumb question............What is a "ZY"? Probably something I know or should but escapes me right now!
If I'm not mistaken it is a very inexpensive razor, along the lines of the gold dollar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael70
You are not mistaken. It is an $8 razor, claims to be 430 steel.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Well, to the best of my knowledge carbon content and tempering (which rearranges the particles on a molecular level) are what dictates hardness of any given steel. In the case of stainless steel, Chromium is added most often to a lower carbon content mild steel. Or so my google-fu indicates, take it for what you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Tempering stainless in an attempt to make it behave like carbon steel might work, but getting just enough carbon content to make it behave like a carbon steel in terms of hardness would be a bit of a trick - and that is where the difference lies between cheap/stamped stainless steel razors and artisan crafted razors/those made by established companies come in. It can* be done, and this is why I said 'general rule of thumb.' Not all stainless steel razors are bad, but a manufacturer is not going to go through the trouble of carefully tempering a 440/430 stainless steel blade so it behaves like a carbon steel and put it on the market for under 20 bucks.
High carbon is a horse of a different feather. I would trust a cheap carbon steel razor because that's what high carbon steel is - hard and cheap. I would not trust a cheap stainless blade. A quality handcrafted stainless blade, or one from an established reputable manufacturer are a different thing all together, because they will take the care to treat the blade properly - and the price will reflect that.
I don't doubt that. I but I'll never experience it first hand. I just wouldn't ever buy a cheaply made razor. Nothing wrong with a cheap razor if you can find a good vintage blade, but this cheaply made current stuff I'll pass on. Different strokes for different folks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Can't say I blame you there. There's a reason most of mine are vintage, with exception to my Dovo and the Gold Dollar I bought simply to satisfy my own curiosity.