Soft blade?

Ive got an old sheffield blade, I bought it from Ebay a while back. Its almost a wedge shape. It was polished but not sharpened when I got it and I bought some scales to finish it off.

Its sharp before I start shaving but about half way through a shave it seems to start dragging a little, in fact I just managed to nick myself with it thanks to it seeming to grab.

I know nothing about straight razors although I am trying to learn. I'm happy I can get it sharp as it will cut a hanging hair no problem and it shaves just fine until like I say about half way through. Unless its something wrong with my shaving prep I wondered if the blade could be just soft? Is this possible at all?

Im not sure what heat treatment is carried out on blades where they hardened in the old days?

Thanks

Well, that is possible, especially if someone over heated the blade while polishing it on a buffer.

Unfortunately, a HHT is not an indicator of how a razor will shave or even if it will shave, because the sample size is so small. Most probably the bevel is not fully set.

Have you look at the edge with magnification, and what did you hone it on? A good rule of thumb is, to look at the edge with magnification, at the first sign of a problem.


Posting some photos of the razor would help advising you.

Apart from the razor if you lather was not good, not slick enough, you would experience a degradation of the edge feel on the skin

Guys thanks for the replies.

I honed it on 1000, 3000, 4000, 8000 then canvas then strop both with paste one them. If the bevel was not right would i not shave right in the first place though? Like I say I know nothing :)

Ill try and get some photos but not sure how to get a picture of the edge.

Mainman I was wondering if that was the problem as well as im new its taking a while to shave although the lather feels slick enough and I used oil first.

When they heat treated blades in the old days did they do the entire blade or was it just a portion of the cutting edge? Im guessing with something as small as a blade they would have done the whole lot.

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Originally Posted by Bonio

Guys thanks for the replies.

I honed it on 1000, 3000, 4000, 8000 then canvas then strop both with paste one them. If the bevel was not right would i not shave right in the first place though? Like I say I know nothing :)

Ill try and get some photos but not sure how to get a picture of the edge.

Mainman I was wondering if that was the problem as well as im new its taking a while to shave although the lather feels slick enough and I used oil first.

When they heat treated blades in the old days did they do the entire blade or was it just a portion of the cutting edge? Im guessing with something as small as a blade they would have done the whole lot.

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the whole blade was treated .
If your bevel was not completely set and you polished it on the higher grits, you could have masked that shortcoming initially. In general shaving with the grain with duller edge will work for most folks, the issues reveal themselves on the XTG and ATG passes.

I never got any further than shaving WTG :(

You NEED to visit with someone that knows , in person, ASAP. You jumped into the deep end with pockets full of quarters.
If this is your first shaves with new razor, and you honed it, you have 6 major learning curves going on at once. YIKES.

Yes, you are way ahead of yourself, shave ready is something it needs to be and chances are it isn't, also take in the account you haven't learned to shave yet, many a razor didn't perform when a guy is new that will shave when you learn how, lather like was mentioned, but your edge as most find out is probably not right. It's tough to hear but almost all guys who try to hone will not be successful at getting it right till they have some experience with a truly shave ready razor, I would send it out to be honed, or put your location in your profile so someone can reach out if they are close. Tc

Hello and welcome. Have you tried the hanging hair test right after your attempt at shaving? If it still passes that might mean that the edge didn't degrade from that shave. Does it pass the entire length of the edge? What brand stones do you have? I would watch a couple of videos on bevel setting and honing in general. Take it to the 1k stone and make sure its set before moving on. There are a couple of videos on how to check the bevel. You will be shaving in no time.

Wedges and near wedges can also suction to your face if you have the spine against the skin. Although a 'wire edge' could be as likely.

I recently was given a old razor. I removed the scales and put the blade on a set of scales I made. Then I honed the razor. It would never cut hair on my arm worth a tinkers darn! I even bread knifed it and started over. Still no luck on certain areas of the blades edge. I then tried one last thing I did not want to do and that was bread knife it again and then start the whole progression from bevel set starting at 220 grit to really make sure I got through the metal!!! It made me cringe to think of this being such an aggressive grit but it did not take a lot of metal off and now this razor may be one of my sharpest if that makes sense.

In fact it shaved like a dream and after use and cleanup and stropping for the next session it felt like a samurai blade again ready to cut with little effort.

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Originally Posted by Bonio

Ive got an old sheffield blade, I bought it from Ebay a while back. Its almost a wedge shape. It was polished but not sharpened when I got it and I bought some scales to finish it off.

Its sharp before I start shaving but about half way through a shave it seems to start dragging a little, in fact I just managed to nick myself with it thanks to it seeming to grab.

I know nothing about straight razors although I am trying to learn. I'm happy I can get it sharp as it will cut a hanging hair no problem and it shaves just fine until like I say about half way through. Unless its something wrong with my shaving prep I wondered if the blade could be just soft? Is this possible at all?

Im not sure what heat treatment is carried out on blades where they hardened in the old days?

Thanks

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Up date your info. Let folks know where you are. There might just be someone close enough that is good at honing that can help you. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Bonio

I never got any further than shaving WTG :(

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Then you did not get half way through the shave, just the first pass.
I'd focus on making sure the bevel is set correctly if I were you.

Thanks for the advice.
I've watched videos on YouTube to get tips. I've also read that a wedge isn't the best thing to start with.
The post about suction rings true a bit too.
I actually live near Sheffield in the UK, which is why I'm interested in razors from around here :)

i pi honed it with a layer of tape on the back as it had some wear on the spine too.

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Originally Posted by Bonio

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Yes thats a lot of hone wear. You are going to need about 5 layers of tape. I can't tell but it looks like a frown but it could be the uneven bevel. Not the ideal razor to start with.

What brand of stones do you have and what pastes are on your strops?

At this point the edge look uneven and frowning somewhat.

It will probably need to be breadknife straight and then honed. Whatever you do, do not put it on the 220 grit stone, the 1k will do all you need.

If you use the 220 you will do more damage than good. This is a pretty nice razor and one you should put aside for when you have more experience honing. It is not that bad and still can be saved.

Perhaps look in the classifieds and pick up a shave ready razor and learn to shave and maintain a razor first, then learn to hone, and do repairs.

A hands on mentor will greatly cut your learning curve.

I dont know what make the stones are, nothing fancy. They are flat though.

The paste is the solingen Stanger pasta.

I see the frown in the photo but not in real life, I think its a trick of the light and the lens on the camera maybe. Im off to measure the blade along its length now as I get the feeling it may not be very even.

Ive got a shave ready (wait for it) gold dollar :) Ill give that a go and see how that works. Its been altered and honed by a guy who seems to know what he is doing.

The reason I ask about the stones is not all stone work well with honing razors.

It is not just about grit size, the binder plays a very large part in successful honing of razors.

Many have tried inexpensive stones off EBay and other places and hand nothing but problems with them on razors. These are knife stones and may work with knives but not with razors.

You have to remember the Razor Honing market is very small, and we use hones designed for other tools and knives, that just happen to work for razors.

There are only a relative handful, that are proven performers, the King, Norton and Naniwia are the most common and least expensive.

You may want to consider purchasing a set of stones exclusively for razor honing. An inexpensive set, that are proven performers will go a long way to improving your honing skills.

There are tons of threads on starter honing sets, in the hone forum.

Im on a bit of a tight budget to be honest, however I will see what I can find :)

I used this one and this one. (links to amazon). They seem to work well enough dont clog or grab they feel even and the lines they leave on the blade look even as far as I can see.

I have just measured the thickness of the spine as I wondered if it was thinner where it shows signs of honing the most (towards the tip) it is in fact .54mm thicker there which explains the excess honing marks I guess.

I will do what is suggested though. Leave it to one side as I quite like the blade and would hate to spoil it.

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Originally Posted by Bonio

Im on a bit of a tight budget to be honest, however I will see what I can find :)

I used this one and this one. (links to amazon). They seem to work well enough dont clog or grab they feel even and the lines they leave on the blade look even as far as I can see.

I have just measured the thickness of the spine as I wondered if it was thinner where it shows signs of honing the most (towards the tip) it is in fact .54mm thicker there which explains the excess honing marks I guess.

I will do what is suggested though. Leave it to one side as I quite like the blade and would hate to spoil it.

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Seem similar to that of Norton stones. Should work as long as you lapped the stones and know indeed they are flat. They really don't come lapped or truly flat in my experience from the factory even if bought new.

See if there is someone that has honed and proficient in your area that can assist you. I would also finish up on a 12k grit like a Naniwa to get that final edge for shaving. If you don't have one seek someone in the area also. But you can shave off a 8k stone for sure.

Good luck and just make sure those stones are truly flat by lapping them or getting someone to do it for you.

Those are carborundum silicon carbide stones and are meant mostly for stainless steel knives and tools. They probably are flat, but they work better after they have been burnished in with a piece of scrap steel.
I've never been able to get a smooth edge on plain carbon steel with carborundum; however, a good finisher after the 8k will smooth up the carborundum edge.

The 1k stone is a good one to remove chips from blades and to do a bevel set on a stainless razor.

You do have a nice razor there, it can be brought back to life, but it will take some honing gymnastics to get it shave ready. I'd put it aside for now until you learn some more honing - or if you really love it, send it out to honed which is probably cheaper than buying more hones.

What Brand is the razor ????

It has no manufacturer on it just made in sheffield

I asked because the profile of the Blade and the Grind look suspect..

Could I see a pic of the entire razor ??? and one with the Sheffield stamp

“Seem similar to that of Norton stones. Should work as long as you lapped the stones”

No, they are nothing like a Norton stone, other than that, they are advertised, as the same grit.

Only a small number of stones work well, honing razors, with knives you may be able to get away with these stone.

With razors it is not just grit size that matters, the type of grit and more importantly the binder plays a large part in performance in razor honing, especially when learning to hone.

The problem with making these statements, is new guys read them and say “Oh, they are just like Norton’s, at a fraction of the cost.”

You have only to look at the Chinese Naturals and EBay slates and all the issues new guys have with them, expecting stellar, high grit performance.

I suspect there are far more Chinese and EBay slate stones sitting in drawers, than in use.

If you want to lean to hone, set yourself up for success and buy quality stones, they really are not, that expensive and it is a life time purchase,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bonio

When they heat treated blades in the old days did they do the entire blade or was it just a portion of the cutting edge? Im guessing with something as small as a blade they would have done the whole lot.

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Normally the whole blade would get the heat treating. BUT Sheffield steel is a shallow hardening steel and only the thin section close to the cutting edge would be Martensite after the quench.

Right now that is starting to make sense. I asked the original question because I studied metallurgy as part of my trade (although many years ago!) and I wondered if this blade might of been honed past the ideal layer for holding an edge. I only paid a few £ for it and it was bought as an experiment really. It measures 5/8" deep.

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Did you create all that hone wear ???


I have a sneaking suspicion even with the little amount of clues you are giving us from the pics, what you have there is what we often call an RSO.. (Razor Shaped Object)

I can't be sure from the pics you have provided, but that is where the clues are taking my thoughts

With more pics and more info I can get much smarter :)

Regardless that razor has some seriously bad hone wear

For a 5/8 size razor the tang should be about .135" thick, or just over 1/8" at the pivot that will give you an idea of original blade size , but from the pics the ratio looks about right, hard to tell really..
This will tell you if there was much more blade size honed away taking you into the "Belly of the Blade"

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Normally the whole blade would get the heat treating. BUT Sheffield steel is a shallow hardening steel and only the thin section close to the cutting edge would be Martensite after the quench.

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That's 1 I never heard before. Just saying :<0) I would be interested in knowing more.

gssixgun I am sure I created some of the hone wear, I did tape it though after I read up on honing wedge blades. It looks worse than it is and there is no discernable wear compared to the tang part when i measured the thickness.

Not really sure what other pictures to take, the scales are what I added as it was just the blade when I bought it.

Ive shaved with the other razor now and Im starting to think its more my shaving technique more than anything! :)

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Originally Posted by Bonio

gssixgun I am sure I created some of the hone wear, I did tape it though after I read up on honing wedge blades. It looks worse than it is and there is no discernable wear compared to the tang part when i measured the thickness.

Not really sure what other pictures to take, the scales are what I added as it was just the blade when I bought it.

Ive shaved with the other razor now and Im starting to think its more my shaving technique more than anything! :)

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Maybe you got it sorted then :)

Sooooooo hard to tell over the internet with pics,, all we can do is give a best guess :shrug:

So much of this hobby is done by hands on feel,, but hey we try :p

If heat treating was minimally invasive in regards to depth of the metal, then every old well honed or reground razor would be soft. It has been a few years since my materials science courses; but if one considers the cooling rate of the metal as dependent to the hardness of the metal, then hardening would be proportional to the rate of cooling with the depth of the razor. So, it would theoretically change with depth, but final grinding after heat treat would remove that top layer anyways. Since razors are relatively thin metal, it would lead me to believe that a large portion of the metal itself from spine to edge is uniform. Of course, this also considers the cooling to be applied instantaneously in the described area. Dipping toe first or edge first and that rate of immersion would have to be taken into account if we're going to the extreme nitty gritty.

Hardness differentiation on older Sheffield razors:

You might want to poke around in the archives IIRC it was Josh Earl that did some Hardness tests back in 07 on some of the Older Sheffielders

Guys I have to say thanks to all of you, 1) for all the information 2) making me feel welcome here.

I have been using the internet since 1993 (such as it was back then) and i run my own websites including one that has been on the go since 1998 and rarely is ever have I seen a community as descent as this one.

Cheers.

Ill park this wedge up until I can be certain I can get it as sharp as it can be and concentrate on learning to hone with a more 'normal' shape blade and mean time learn to shave properly with a shave ready razor.

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Originally Posted by dinnermint

If heat treating was minimally invasive in regards to depth of the metal, then every old well honed or reground razor would be soft. It has been a few years since my materials science courses; but if one considers the cooling rate of the metal as dependent to the hardness of the metal, then hardening would be proportional to the rate of cooling with the depth of the razor. So, it would theoretically change with depth, but final grinding after heat treat would remove that top layer anyways. Since razors are relatively thin metal, it would lead me to believe that a large portion of the metal itself from spine to edge is uniform. Of course, this also considers the cooling to be applied instantaneously in the described area. Dipping toe first or edge first and that rate of immersion would have to be taken into account if we're going to the extreme nitty gritty.

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From Verhoven's experiments all of the steel about 1/8" and thinner hardened. That is about half of the blade.