Micro pitting, how much is too much?

I've just finished re setting the bevel and honing a Carl Herder and notice something very interesting...

simple look, the blade looked great... the edge had a polish after the 8k, but before moving tot he 12 k just for finishing i wanted to see in the microscope and noticed micro pitting in the very edge... analyzing the blade there are some other areas were it's present, however the bad part i that it's in the edge as well...

here's how it looks, first even at 500x could not be seen:

Attachment 251402

however, on the 1000x you can see it clearly:

Attachment 251403
Attachment 251404
Attachment 251405

so.. i'll finish and do a shave test (i guess?) but how much could I call this "shave ready" knowing that it has that micro pitting there?
how much pitting is too much? would you still call it a good blade or should i just put this on the box of "collection only"?

furthermore... if anyone wanted to buy a blade in this status.. would you call it shave ready just because it shaves well?.. ir you think it's actually impossible that this shaves well?

just looking for some... perspective :D

cheers!

Gabe

UPDATE: after moving to the naniwa 12k and stropping, I tested it.... just finished shaving ...
I was hesitant at the beginning, but the thing shaves alright... now... comments? :O

Thats a very good question. I am curious to hear what other have to say.

I think its entirely possible that the edge could shave just fine....except you know that the condition exists...and that in itself will always be in the back of your mind when you use her. The condition would bug me even if it didn't effect the shave.

Selling the razor as is without disclosing this condition is your call.

I have a current production Revisor that has two areas of bad metal. One spot worked its way into the bevel and down to the edge as I honed it over a year. The razor shaved alright, but I couldn't get around the fact that there was bad metal there. This particular razor was a fine shaver and it was rescaled in custom Briarwood scales before I noticed the issues. I eventually replaced the blade and my restoration guy was generous enough to do the blade swap for free. The new blade is defect free and shaves great.

Attached is a close up of my bad metal that worked its way out. Ill also attach a shot of it in Briarwood, not to hijack your thread, but so you can understand how upsetting this was to me after such lovely scales were made for her.


Good luck! Attachment 251413Attachment 251414Attachment 251415

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Originally Posted by BadB

Selling the razor as is without disclosing this condition is your call.

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Oh... I leave.in Costa Rica so i dont sell blades... just buy :) nevertheless.... if i was to sell this blade I would definedly inform the buyer... but to be honest i'm not sure i would sell it...

the question was going the other way around in my mind... if I had purchased this blade and was advertised as "shave ready"... would this be a justification for me to return it?

This blade was purchased for practice... not advertised as shave ready... it had bevel issues and so previous owner honing produced a misshape.of the spine, so the width of the blade was 19.5 mm on the hill and 17 on the toe ... which i just corrected too... so the micropitting is not a biggie since it was really cheap and just a practice razor, but it was not advertised as having micro pitting... nor shave ready either..

Anyhow, like the title says... how much is too much for micropitting? and considering some of us buy "shave ready" razors.in ebay.... how much this would be a "certainly not shave ready"?

I mean i just shaved with this razor
... not the best shave ever, but not the worst... would that justify someone to sell me a blade loke this and call it "shave ready"?

On the other hand... not everyone has a.microscope.and the seller migth just hace honesd it and tested it... and when i get it i see.the pitting on microscope...

Where would ve the line for you guys? Is from now on a microscope revision part of the "shave ready test"?

The intend of this thread is not.to judge anyone, but learn from perspectice of different folks in the community...

By the way... that Revisor of yours is just gorgeous!!!

Your level of magnification is so high that I'm not sure that many really analyze their razors like that. I think I have a 30X loupe and that is as far as I ever go. Maybe I have blades that look like that. What I cn tell you is that if my blades shave well I consider them shave ready. I have never looked at a blade at 500 before. The was a well known member here who used to talk about that he enjoyed honing for a while and then bought a microscope and then all the minute details that he had never seen before started to drive hime crazy. After some time had passed he sold his microscope and all his hones and had his razor done by someone else after that. No more obsessing.

On the side track, nice scales.

Ah, ok thanks for the clarification.

As a buyer, I think you have justifiable grounds for a return.

I can also see a seller who didn't have a high power loupe run her through his stone progression and not catch the pitting issue. As you know the, "shave ready" term is so subjective. In my mind, as the buyer, the pitting, regardless of how well the razor shaves does indeed knock it out of shave ready condition.

Indeed the microscope.posibilities add some complication to the matter :) hehe

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To the OP, looks like Cell Rot pitting, and the edge is falling apart. Even at 500X the edge does not look good.

What are you stropping on, and do you know what the scratches on the back of the bevel and the belly of the razor are from?

I would lightly joint it and re set the bevel. You do have at least one pit at the edge.

Was the Herder a Cell Rot razor.

As an aside I did a big old F. Herder for a guy in Reindeer Antler and it was a smoking shaver.

If a razor is honed and will shave then IMO it's "shave ready". If it's sold as no micropitting to 500X then that's justification for returning it. Otherwise, a vintage Ebay razor that shaves well is shave ready.

If it shaves well it's shave ready. If you can't see it at 500x I wouldn't worry about it too much. Of course, once I knew it was there it would bug me until I fixed it. I think I'm probably better off not looking at my bevels that close.

My experience says that blade, in that condition, will create weepers. Tiny cuts. Not shave ready in my book. I would return it if I could see pitting near the edge at 60X. If it were mine, I would try to hone it and shave with it but I have several in my box that looked like that and were not satisfactory to me.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

To the OP, looks like Cell Rot pitting, and the edge is falling apart. Even at 500X the edge does not look good.

What are you stropping on, and do you know what the scratches on the back of the bevel and the belly of the razor are from?

I would lightly joint it and re set the bevel. You do have at least one pit at the edge.

Was the Herder a Cell Rot razor.

As an aside I did a big old F. Herder for a guy in Reindeer Antler and it was a smoking shaver.

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nope, scales are just fine, and pictures are not stropped razor yet, ... it was in the middle of honning when i checked the microscope and found the pitting...
also, there are in fact more than one pit at the edge.. there were 3... problem is that they are all over the bevel, so if I set bevel again, more holes will be in the new edge...

like I said, i shaved with it just fine after i finished the honing/stropping process... i Agree with BadB it's on my mind that the bade has pitting even when using it.. also, i'm thinking shaving with it could do nothing good to it as more humidity will get into the pitting and it will be hard to remove, even stropping after shaving... that would make the issue to grow...

I'm not sure if i'll use the blade to shave again, but the topic is interesting! :)

My take on micro pitting and microscopes for honing as a novice honer is from honing and shaving with vintage razors of which quite a few have this issue.

First off I do not use a microscope just a loupe of 20x to 30x, I can't remember which. I have been successfully shaving with my edges for a couple of years now. I am sure they are not likely as sharp as a pro honed blade but they do the job nicely. I do daily 4 pass shaves so they can't be all that bad either.

Many of my vintage razors have micro pitting from rust. That presents a problem if they are at/very near the edge, apex of the bevel. While resetting the bevel I hone until none are at the edge on the bevel and the bevel is set. This is usually done on a 1K Naniwa. I then go up the progression. At any stage should more micro pits appear on the edge I go back to the bevel setting hone and hone past the new pitting. It can be frustrating and you can loose some blade with but you eventually get there. There can be micro pitting still on the bevel once finished honing but not on the edge. Never had one that would not shave in that condition. Is it ideal, no. If you can't live with that don't buy vintage razors to be on the safe side.

I refuse to buy a microscope and scare the crap out of myself by how bad the edge and bevel will look under high magnification. Even a blade without micro pitting from rust likely will look cratered like the lunar landscape under such high magnification from what I have seen posted on this site. Anyway, take that with a huge grain of salt as it is coming from a novice honer.

Bob

When you buy any item there has to be an understanding when you examine your purchase and decide if it is defective or not is that based on a visual inspection meaning via your eyes or based on magnification and if so how much.

In my book it's based on a visual inspection. With a razor, if it shaves fine and looks good with reasonable aid meaning a magnifying glass that's the end of it. if I sold a razor and someone put it under 100x and complained I'd tell him what he could do with his magnifier.

You are buying a used item anyway and that carries an expectation. Even most new items won't hold up to 100x whatever the item is.

I sell watches and it really chaps my hide when some dude buys a used watch at half price and then tells me he sees scratches I didn't disclose which he sees with 30x magnification and then tries to shake me down for a partial refund.

Cell rot does not have to come from the scales on the razor, it could have been stored with an off-gassing razor, (I have seen an entire glass case in an Antique Store, affected by a single razor), or yours, re-scaled.

The steel is bad and crumbling whatever the cause. You may get lucky and get to solid steel if you remove more steel.

It’s not the pits so much, you can hone around them, it is the crumbling edge of bad steel that is an issue.

I have honed razors with slight pitting, and you just have to keep honing until you have no pits at the edge. Pits on the bevel don’t matter.

But what are the stria on the back of the bevel and the belly of the razor from, some horizontal? Those are unique, not from circles, all of them are straight.

What was the condition of the razor when you received it?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I sell watches and it really chaps my hide when some dude buys a used watch at half price and then tells me he sees scratches

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in some cases a razor that costed 2$ original is sold now for 200$ :) so not necessarily used here means cheaper, but I understand the point.. i guess the gap here is.. what is considered shave ready and what not... but indeed it's understandable that if a seller is not capable of seeing the damage, but the buyer is... then an arrangement should be sought?


I mean, you have a 30x magnifier.. there are folks selling razors that don't even care the condition and hence there should not be issue... but when once again, when you cal it "shave ready"... what does that imply.. it's demonstrated in this very same thread that there are different meaning for the same expression :D

So if this should become a big issue in general in the vintage razor selling market would it make a difference if all vintage razors currently listed as "shave ready" started using the term "newly honed"?

If you bought such a razor would you still feel justified in returning it after inspection at 500x?

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Cell rot does not have to come from the scales on the razor, it could have been stored with an off-gassing razor, (I have seen an entire glass case in an Antique Store, affected by a single razor), or yours, re-scaled.

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u are right on that :) i failed to think about that.. it might have been stored on the same container with a celu rot handles/razor


But what are the stria on the back of the bevel and the belly of the razor from, some horizontal? Those are unique, not from circles, all of them are straight.
What was the condition of the razor when you received it?[/QUOTE]

uhhh it was not in a good condition.. to be honest i think someone sanded this horizontally on a couple of sports with sand paper.. maybe 1000 or 1200 to remove one stain or two...
but worst part is that the honed it unevenly for a long time... like the blade width at the hill was 2 mm wider than at the toe... now it's been, and that was my main interest, on learning how to do that :)

i think i will follow your advice and hone it a bit more (now that it is even)... and see if i can get rid of all the pits on the very edge :)

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

So if this should become a big issue in general in the vintage razor selling market would it make a difference if all vintage razors currently listed as "shave ready" started using the term "newly honed"?

If you bought such a razor would you still feel justified in returning it after inspection at 500x?

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LOL indeed... this would refdefine some things... neertheless. newly hones by no means is the same than "shave ready" LOL

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Originally Posted by gabrielcr78

LOL indeed... this would refdefine some things... neertheless. newly hones by no means is the same than "shave ready" LOL

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I think it is. :)

:rofl2:I think that a few of these expectations are extreme by the buyers.

If you expect what you are purchasing to be free of defects under 1000 X magnification or to be in perfect condition under any magnification after 1 year of ownership and use you should ask the seller if they guarantee it.

These defects shown as examples here in this thread are defects in the buyer not the seller.

Shave ready to me means that it shaves comfortably. Or at worst is 4 swipes or less from a barber's hone away from shaving comfortably.

That said, I don't expect any vintage razor I pickup to be shave ready. The only way you're getting a NEW razor that's shave ready is through Mastro Livi or a vendor like SRD that's both knowledgeable and skilled enough to hone them properly before sending them out. Used razor? Maybe if it were a Whipped Dog, or sold through the classifieds here.

Ebay? I'm not chancing it. That razor is getting honed by my hands before it touches my face.

The pitting condition that yours is in? I probably wouldn't even contact the seller unless it was a "fully restored, shave ready" razor that I paid a good chunk of change for. One good sharpening session and the pitting that's of concern is as good as gone. You'd probably literally spend more time haggling and arguing than it would take to hone it out.

If I could show you a picture of what the wedge I bought last year looked like at 500x magnification you'd have nightmares.

Too much magnification is not always a good thing!
Good shaves, shiny bevels, and ignorance is bliss! :D

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Originally Posted by Marshal

The pitting condition that yours is in? I probably wouldn't even contact the seller unless it was a "fully restored, shave ready" razor that I paid a good chunk of change for. One good sharpening session and the pitting that's of concern is as good as gone. You'd probably literally spend more time haggling and arguing than it would take to hone it out.

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Once again, i'm not interested in return or contact the vendor... i agree with you... many vintage razors are just a gamble... and in fact you xan consider lucky if you get a good one from ebay... but you guys have to agree this is a great controversial topic ☺☺☺☺



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“uhhh it was not in a good condition.. to be honest i think someone sanded this horizontally on a couple of sports with sand paper.. maybe 1000 or 1200 to remove one stain or two...
but worst part is that the honed it unevenly for a long time”.

That makes sense.

So, just to be clear, you are not doing a garden variety honing, you are doing a repair. A completely different set of expectations. You would not take a rusty car, give it a light scuffing and spray a new coat of paint, expecting a pristine finish paint job.

Once repaired, then it can be honed normally, if the steel will handle it.

On an abused blade, you can expect some damage at the edge from weakened steel. In your case, the bevel was most probably never “fully” set.

This is not a shave ready edge.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“uhhh it was not in a good condition.. to be honest i think someone sanded this horizontally on a couple of sports with sand paper.. maybe 1000 or 1200 to remove one stain or two...
but worst part is that the honed it unevenly for a long time”.

That makes sense.

So, just to be clear, you are not doing a garden variety honing, you are doing a repair. A completely different set of expectations. You would not take a rusty car, give it a light scuffing and spray a new coat of paint, expecting a pristine finish paint job.

Once repaired, then it can be honed normally, if the steel will handle it.

On an abused blade, you can expect some damage at the edge from weakened steel. In your case, the bevel was most probably never “fully” set.

This is not a shave ready edge.

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Well....Ray Charles could have seen this! Without magnification, I suppose?
Discuss!

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Well....Ray Charles could have seen this! Without magnification, I suppose?
Discuss!

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You've got to admit... as a learning ptpject it is very interesting and educational!! [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

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Originally Posted by gabrielcr78

You've got to admit... as a learning ptpject it is very interesting and educational!! [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

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I think you can get through it. Keep it off the buffer. Just spreads otherwise innocent little pits.
Good meat a ways away. Might lose some blade width?

So, if the horizontal stria, from hand sanding, the bevel was never fully set, the bevel was never flat and honed to the edge.

Joint the edge on a 1k and reset it, see if you can get a pit free edge and an edge that will hold.

Look at another currently running thread. (Ding near toe... go right to the 1K?)

Look at post 29, and a 1k edge from Job15, that is what you want at 1k

Keep lightly jointing the edge and resetting until you get a straight edge pit free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, if the horizontal stria, from hand sanding, the bevel was never fully set, the bevel was never flat and honed to the edge.

Joint the edge on a 1k and reset it, see if you can get a pit free edge and an edge that will hold.

Look at another currently running thread. (Ding near toe... go right to the 1K?)

Look at post 29, and a 1k edge from Job15, that is what you want at 1k

Keep lightly jointing the edge and resetting until you get a straight edge pit free.

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Thanks man!!!! I'll do that and report back!!

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