Frown on Dovo from Stropping?

Hey all.

Can you get a frown from regular stropping?

I bought 2 Dovos from 2 different guys on Craigslist: A tortoise shell Special - it was brand new as I could tell with a 60x loupe, and a Best Quality which was pretty neglected, but I got for real cheap. The Special honed up perfectly and for the past year has been one of my fav shavers. The BQ had a frown. I asked the kid how often he took it to the stones and he replied "what stones?". I moved heaven and earth to get the frown out and was somewhat satisfied with the shave after the work was done.

Fast forward a year later and about 15 shaves for each razor and was shocked to find both of them have slight frowns. These have not been on stones since I initially worked with them, nor have they been CrO'd to death. I checked a majority of my regulars and none of them are like that. I always strop light and am pretty sure I under-strop due to my reliable laziness.

Is this something to expect from newer Dovos?

Man, that is a new one on me. Never heard of creating a frown by stropping on plain linen and leather.

Bob

I don't think it is possible, but I was wrong once before. :shrug: Photos would be a help. Do you know the honing history behind the razor ?

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't think it is possible, but I was wrong once before. :shrug: Photos would be a help. Do you know the honing history behind the razor ?

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I agree photos would help but in my delusional state I sent those frowns a'packin... It didn't take long to correct, but took some time bringing the edges back.

The Special was a bday gift to the guy who sold it to me from his ex... He had absolutely no interest in using it. There was still a slight 'sticker' residue on the blade face. IMO it was factory edge. The BQ was from a kid who just didn't like using it. He bought it as a combo kit with a strop, paste, brush etc... I assume he only used it on the strop (which I have - there was no paste on it, but it looked used).

Currently, the edges are more straight than smiley, ... perhaps a more defined smile would help? dunno... again the weird thing is that my other regular shavers, including 2 other newer dovos' don't have that problem.

:thinking: Even if you stropped on CrOx every day for a year let alone for 15 shaves you shouldn't get a frown, as Jimmy says photos will help. How many laps do you do on linen and leather? I just did an experiment with 1000 laps to see if there was any edge degradation. There wasnt.

What width is your strop...?
What type of strop.
What type linen.
Did you buy it used, if so the linen may have been coated with diamond spray, some vintage strops have a white compound in them.
Hmmm, my only thoughts.

I don't buy it. Yer talking about moving some metal there. You would have to strop non stop for years to do that on plain leather.

to address all of the points mentioned above:

-No Pictures, sorry, It was more important to me to get them shave ready and I didn't have a lot of time.
-I do about 10 on the nylon side and count up to 'meh, good enough' on the leather side (~30)
-strop is 3" Latigo, bought new, the other side is the nylon webbing stuff, don't know what it's called

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

And that's what people do, strop on them for years....no?

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In the OP's case stropping for only 15 shaves worth. Normal stropping does not remove steel just burnishes it.

Bob

Unless you are stropping on the edge of that strop, rather then the flat..... Nope

I have to believe you would have to be doing something SERIOUSLY wrong to create a frown.. Like stropping with the spine well off the strop

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

And that's what people do, strop on them for years....no?
Otherwise, some facts have been overlooked. Best case scenario...
I used to pull razors off the bay that had wierd frowns. Believe it or not but the wear pattern on the spine was the same of that of the edge. They turned into rocking horses.
:rofl2:

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a fact that i should state is that it wasn't a monster frown. i saw the curvature in one of them, picked up a precision straight edge to confirm.... heel touching, toe touching, daylight in the middle. frown.

I'm also thinking that there was the off chance that the BQ touched a grinding wheel and killed the temper, but there was no discolouration or grind marks... and it does not explain the other straight.

Well I picked up a barber friends of mines straight today, he said it needs honed.
It hasn't been honed since the last time I did it.....6/15. He strops it approximately 20 times a day, 5 days a week.
(You can do the math if you like)
It still pops hair, but the top of the apex is gone, smooth and rounded. That's all the wear I see.
So it can't be the strop, Period..!!
He strops on a 2 1/2" vintage strop, couldn't tell ya what make, but its well used.

One of these days I'm gonna sneek a video of him stroppin.
It'll make you cringe, [emoji16] but its accurate.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...35a3251c16.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

And that's what people do, strop on them for years....no?
Otherwise, some facts have been overlooked. Best case scenario...
I used to pull razors off the bay that had wierd frowns. Believe it or not but the wear pattern on the spine was the same of that of the edge. They turned into rocking horses.
:rofl2:

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If that's the case old time barbers must have had some really funny looking razors or they threw them away and bought new ones every couple of years.

It's possible that the frowns were there all along, unnoticed. Now that you've gained experience, they are noticeable. Just a theory.

that was my thought too ,, dude the frown was always there, you cant strop a frown with leather, in 15 shaves or 15,000 Tc

Ok, if it's not the stropping our competitors haves some thoughts on the matter.
http://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/...effect.155755/

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

It's possible that the frowns were there all along, unnoticed. Now that you've gained experience, they are noticeable. Just a theory.

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

that was my thought too ,, dude the frown was always there, you cant strop a frown with leather, in 15 shaves or 15,000 Tc

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Yep 110% agreement there

Unless you are doing something seriously wrong on the strop

Some Dovos and some TI come from the factor with slight frowns, or so I've heard. They'll still take a great edge if honed properly.

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

Ok, if it's not the stropping our competitors haves some thoughts on the matter.
http://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/...effect.155755/

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Like most everyone in this thread has been saying, you can't get a frown on a razor from stropping. You can get a frown on a razor from improper honing. You have to remove metal and honing does that while stropping does not remove metal.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Like most everyone in this thread has been saying, you can't get a frown on a razor from stropping. You can get a frown on a razor from improper honing. You have to remove metal and honing does that while stropping does not remove metal.

Bob

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Ok, stropping does not remove metal, at all, ever, I got it now.
Thanks for the schooling guys, I think...:gaah:

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

Ok, stropping does not remove metal, at all, ever, I got it now.
Thanks for the schooling guys, I think...:gaah:

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Stropping on plain linen and leather won't remove metal. All bets are off if you have put an abrasive compound on any strop. Even then you are removing such a tiny amount of metal it would take a very determined individual a relative dog's age to put a frown in it if ever.

If you want to put a frown in a razor, just take a smiling razor and do straight back an forth strokes on a 1K hone. There are other ways too but it all involves using a hone improperly for the geometry of the particular razor one is trying to hone.

Bob

No way in this lifetime, your children's and their children's lifetime, that stropping will cause a frown on your razor. Sometimes stropping can cause a frown on my face though. Wait, is this a trick question??

I've seen new Dovos that were ground in such a way that they tended to favor a frown being created when they were honed. Basically thinned out in the center of the blade with thicker sections at the toe and heel. So to keep the edge straight, one had to remove more metal from the toe and heel than at the center.

I'm from the School of thought that those frowns were there from day one it's a simple case that all of a sudden you started to notice them, leather and linen will polish and remove metal but definetly not enough to cause a frown a fine polish transfer which takes a long time, I hone many razor and have linen and leather strops that literally see me stropping sometimes 10 or 20 razors in a week with more than a thousand passes and the metal build up is minimal.

Just checked my oldest razor (Dovo Best Quality), which I have been stropping with leather, fabric, and sometimes my own "paste" (actually slurry from a fine Chinese stone) for many years. In the beginning I also honed it like crazy, but this I have not done for years now. There is no frown, it is perfectly straight as far as I can see.

Having said all that, I feel pretty certain that stropping DOES remove metal. It's just so minute that you could do it through a whole lifetime without seeing the difference. One reason I think it does is because my new plain leather strop, years ago, first seemed to turn slightly grayer/darker, and then later a bit reddish, perhaps indicating oxidized iron. It was a very light color when I started. Not saying that's the only interpretation, but I also think that any such rubbing will likely remove something, even if it is just smoothing areas where hairs have microscopically bitten into the blade. Even a slight polish is removal of metal.

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Originally Posted by trondsi

Having said all that, I feel pretty certain that stropping DOES remove metal. It's just so minute that you could do it through a whole lifetime without seeing the difference. One reason I think it does is because my new plain leather strop, years ago, first seemed to turn slightly grayer/darker, and then later a bit reddish, perhaps indicating oxidized iron. It was a very light color when I started. Not saying that's the only interpretation, but I also think that any such rubbing will likely remove something, even if it is just smoothing areas where hairs have microscopically bitten into the blade. Even a slight polish is removal of metal.

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Yes, can't argue that. In context though, as you say, the amount removed is so minute as to be totally irrelevant in the normal scheme of things. For all practical intents and purposes normal stropping can be considered not to remove metal.

Bob

A "clean" strop should remove little or no metal. But remember that even if we do not intentionally apply abrasives to a strop, it can pick up dust particles from the air and the dust can be rather large abrasives capable of removing metal. The surface of a latigo strop is more porous that some of the smoother types of leather, so it may have some dust particles embedded that are not readily apparent.

I suggest you get a helper to pull your hanging strop to normal taughtness and then check the flatness of your strop from side to side at various positions along the length of the strop. If the leather or cloth is tight in the middle and slack on the edges, the middle will have greater effect on the blade. Over time, this could cause uneven wear. A 3" wide strop is more likely to have such variations in tension than a 2 1/2" strop. Furthermore, those who use a 3" strop tend to use straight strokes rather than an X-strokes, so the blade will contact the same portion of the strop time after time.

Another factor may be that Dovo blades are honed on a convex ground coticule rather than a flat stone. While a convex stone is idea for honing a smiling blade, if the grind already has a slight frown, the convex hone may make the frown worse. Thus, it is possible your blade had a slight frown from the start, but you never checked it against a straight edge.

Next question, is the frown visible on the bevel on both sides? If not, it may be overground near the center as others have commented. I have a Dovo, a Herder, and a Burrell all NOS when I got them, al are overground in one area but only on one side.

Here's the Dovo. You can see that the bevel is much wider at the heel and toe, that's because it has a low spot in the hollow in the center, and that's how much the toe and heel had to wear for the center of the bevel to hit the stones. The other side is fine, a straight even bevel.

These razors can be honed without incurring the wear on the toe and heel, you'll need to use the side or corner of the hone to get into the low area, or a narrow hone, but honing low areas isn't quite what I want on my personal razors so these usually reside in the 'oh well' drawer.

Cheers, Steve

I have a Dovo Ebenholz that I honed up Saturday that has the same heavy bevel at the heel and toe, and a very thin bevel in the middle. I had to work a heck of a frown out of that one. I had a Pearlex that similar issues. In fact, most of the new Dovo's I've touched have some issue or another in this regard. Hopefully I've just had bad luck with them.

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Originally Posted by AtomJensen

I have a Dovo Ebenholz that I honed up Saturday that has the same heavy bevel at the heel and toe, and a very thin bevel in the middle. I had to work a heck of a frown out of that one. I had a Pearlex that similar issues. In fact, most of the new Dovo's I've touched have some issue or another in this regard. Hopefully I've just had bad luck with them.

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Somehow I think that it isn't just us. I also think they know the razors are wonky and why they would continue grinding them like this is beyond my understanding.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Next question, is the frown visible on the bevel on both sides? If not, it may be overground near the center as others have commented. I have a Dovo, a Herder, and a Burrell all NOS when I got them, al are overground in one area but only on one side.

Here's the Dovo. You can see that the bevel is much wider at the heel and toe, that's because it has a low spot in the hollow in the center, and that's how much the toe and heel had to wear for the center of the bevel to hit the stones. The other side is fine, a straight even bevel.

These razors can be honed without incurring the wear on the toe and heel, you'll need to use the side or corner of the hone to get into the low area, or a narrow hone, but honing low areas isn't quite what I want on my personal razors so these usually reside in the 'oh well' drawer.

Cheers, Steve

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Are you referring to the frown where the bevel meets the shoulder of the blade? I thought the OP was referring to a frowning blade edge as shown in the SRP library under edge profiles. http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...#Edge_Profiles

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Are you referring to the frown where the bevel meets the shoulder of the blade? I thought the OP was referring to a frowning blade edge as shown in the SRP library under edge profiles. http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...#Edge_Profiles

Bob

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No the frown is just north of center (towards the toe from center) in my image, where the bevel is thinnest. The hollow is low there so less metal hits the stones there, none to begin with.

Cheers, Steve

Little trick

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-you-leap.html

Often times an uneven bevel will "fool" your eye into seeing a frown that actually isn't there

I think there might have been a bad run of Dovo BQ's 6-7 years ago, I honed about 5 with factory frowns and frowns that came back during honing. Newer ones seem to be fine

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Originally Posted by Steve56

No the frown is just north of center (towards the toe from center) in my image, where the bevel is thinnest. The hollow is low there so less metal hits the stones there, none to begin with.

Cheers, Steve

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Must be the way/angle the photo was taken because I am having a hard time seeing a frowning blade "edge" but I do see where the bevel narrows. The edge of the blade doesn't appear concave to me from the photo.

Bob

Technically I think Glen's right, a low area in the hollow is not what we usually call a frown, but the simple effect is the same, the low area doesn't hit the hones properly, and it shows up low on the Sharpie test. The actual edge may not frown, there's a good bevel on one side of all three of my examples, but the hone sure isn't hitting the apex on the bad side in the overground area.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Technically I think Glen's right, a low area in the hollow is not what we usually call a frown, but the simple effect is the same, the low area doesn't hit the hones properly, and it shows up low on the Sharpie test. The actual edge may not frown, there's a good bevel on one side of all three of my examples, but the hone sure isn't hitting the apex on the bad side in the overground area.

Cheers, Steve

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OK, I was thinking the same way as Glen was. In order for a blade to be considered as having a frown the edge of the blade must be concave not straight or convex as in a smiling blade.

If you have a blade with grind issues or warps/twist you apply the appropriate honing strokes to get a bevel and not create a frown while you are at it. The resulting bevel may be wavy/irregular along where it meets the blade's shoulder but it still will shave well. This kind of problematic blade is not too uncommon from the blades I have honed for myself. I have very few that would lie dead nuts flat on a hone and have an even grind. That is the reason I no longer worry too much how flat my hones are.

Bob