Mastro Livi response

There have been comments made by members under the STROPS section about the Mastro Livi razors. I just got an email that linked to the Mastro Livi club and to Mastro Livi's web page that negatively reflects on the members who commented about problems with the 2016 club razor and quality concerns. Just so it is stated accurately, there are many more members who have had problems recently with the Livi Razors. My comments about the 2016 club razors are correct. They are ground very fine and the blade is more flexible thus many of us find it shaves harshly. I own 6 Livi Razors so I have grounds to compare it. Second, my comments about 2 custom razors having the blades striking the scales and not closing correctly is factual. One was sent back costing me $70 which Mastro Livi repaired. The second I had to add washers to get it to close correctly. Whether Antonio and Mastro Livi want to admit it, there are quality problems and singling out members to criticize after they paid a lot of money for a custom razor is out of line. My razors should never have been sent out in the first place.

You go Mastro!! You really schooled those boys!! All while not even drawing a sweat on your brow.
No response from SRP? That's the jist of it, there are several members here who are seeing the light. That celtic guy is really killing off SRP. Like it was planned or something.
SRP to be the laughing stock in the razor community.....:beer1:

Only 2 comments and they are not directly related to Mastro Livi razors. I do have some extra hollow Solingen razors that shave smoothly with no harshness. Could it be that a slight change in the honing routine and/or during actual shaving might make the difference? Not having any custom razors I would expect perfection in every aspect of a custom should I ever order one. I do think that is one of the reasons people order custom razors.

Sorry for everyone involved to hear of the kerfluffle about Mastro Levi razors.

Bob

In observing members commenting on Mastro's razors, as well as other custom makers, I've seen the majority of comments being positive. So if a batch of club razors comes out, and more than one member independently claims he has a problem with the quality control I'd take him at his word. Especially if he was someone like the original poster who has multiple razors from Mastro that he likes. I personally haven't seen one of these club razors but our senior members generally know what they are talking about when it comes to razors.

I sent to Mastro Livi and Antonio at the Mastro Livi Club my comment that I did not have the blade problems stated by member but have received comments about then. My concern was that the blade was very flexible and the shave harsh. I have 6 Livi Razors and feel I have the ability to compare the shaves. I hone and strop them the same. It's no secret that steels hold an edge and shave differently. If there are quality concerns that are justified, then members should be able to state it as long as they are honest and list the problems accurately. I have 4 Livi razors I absolutely love and will hand down to my grandchildren.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

In observing members commenting on Mastro's razors, as well as other custom makers, I've seen the majority of comments being positive. So if a batch of club razors comes out, and more than one member independently claims he has a problem with the quality control I'd take him at his word. Especially if he was someone like the original poster who has multiple razors from Mastro that he likes. I personally haven't seen one of these club razors but our senior members generally know what they are talking about when it comes to razors.

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Jesus! Did you even watch the video? lol!
These members sent him razors that they junked themselves by improper honing...:banghead:

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Originally Posted by jhalb

You go Mastro!! You really schooled those boys!! All while not even drawing a sweat on your brow.
No response from SRP? That's the jist of it, there are several members here who are seeing the light. That celtic guy is really killing off SRP. Like it was planned or something.
SRP to be the laughing stock in the razor community.....:beer1:

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You know - it may have been a service to everyone if after he posted "close account" 10 times when he first joined SRP, that it was actually closed...

Exactly!! Hide the truth wherever possible. I understand SRP's need to do that now much better.
Well, what are you waitin fer... better ban another..

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Originally Posted by jhalb

Exactly!! Hide the truth wherever possible. I understand SRP's need to do that now much better.
Well, what are you waitin fer... better ban another..

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Your proposal is acceptable. 2 weeks to cool off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiwmeEENx4A

SRP has been the target of every troll, hate group/forum and self serving wannabe and poser since the original community was founded. So please join the hate crew elsewhere.

I was the one who introduced Livi razors to the community many years ago. Mastro Livi has always been the highest order of a gentleman. I find it hard to believe the comments we are seeing are coming from the Mastro Livi I know and have met in person. It is amazing to me that when someone voices quality problems on any subject in here or other venues that trolls like this are driven by agenda and the need for recognition. The Livi of old simply handled his customer service without fanfare or the type of agenda the current response delivered.

Have fun

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Originally Posted by jhalb

You go Mastro!! You really schooled those boys!! All while not even drawing a sweat on your brow.
No response from SRP? That's the jist of it, there are several members here who are seeing the light. That celtic guy is really killing off SRP. Like it was planned or something.
SRP to be the laughing stock in the razor community.....:beer1:

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Originally Posted by jkatzman

They are ground very fine and the blade is more flexible thus many of us find it shaves harshly.

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In my opinion, different grinds shave differently, but by no means does a more finely ground, more flexible blade need to shave harshly. You just have to shave differently with it. As a matter of fact, some of my best shavers are of that sort and they feel like a feather passing over my skin.

Well, I read the strop thread and I watched Mr. Livi's responding videos.

Personally, I thought the negative comments were excessive, whether well-intentioned or not, but I suppose everyone has a right to an opinion. I guess I'm just not sure why such bashing went on for so long, especially in a thread about strops.

Given that the criticisms were made so publicly, I think Mr. Livi was justified in making a public response. I believe that he defended himself admirably and I have to agree that the honing he showed in the photos was both excessive and wrong. It is pretty obvious that he still is a very skilled craftsman.

Oh, and I still want to buy a Livi strop.

I purchased my Livi from a guy here on the board and I expressed some concerns about the razor. I watched the video and it dawned on me that the problem may have been that the seller told me that he had taped the spine with 2 layers maybe three, I don't remember. Anyway I tried to hone it using various layers of tape and got nowhere so I put the razor away and pretty much forgot about it. Yesterday I pulled it out and redid the bevel on a 4k instead of a one 1k as the Mastro advised in the video not to use a 1k and I used NO tape. I finished it on various synthetic and natural stone and I now have an edge I really like and I am a happy Livi owner. Just my experience.

I would suggest for any future touch ups that you use one, but only one, layer of tape.

I wanted to clear up a misunderstanding about the pricing on my present Damascus Steel razor. Mastro Livi was kind enough to contact me and it was explained that my present stainless steel Damascus razor, if ordered today would be similar in price as what I paid a couple of years ago. When I requested pricing on a new Damascus it was quoted with his artisan not the stainless steel which is much more. I didn't realize I was getting a quote on a different steel and I feel this should be posted to reflect that Mastro Livi is correct in stating there have been no increases. I also received the cost of my shipping the razor which shows how important it is to Mastro Livi to take care of his customers.

I watched the first video and was horrified by the hone wear on the razor. At some point one would hope one would just stop grinding away and take a step back, I can understand why Mastro Livi made the video. Whether or not it would take an edge that is not how to hone a razor and that is not how one would expect a razor to be returned.

I have one Mastro Livi, an Inox custom. The fit and finish is not perfect, you can still see buffing marks on top of the spine and the razor sits off center so you have to be careful when closing. The grinding itself however is perfect, not many custom makers out there can grind a full hollow razor like this and the bevel is small and even.
Im really happy with mine, hopefully anyone that has issues can get them rectified.

I dont usually respond but after watching the Mastro Livi video I'm going to, Mr Livi states in his video a razor that I honed had excessive ware on the spine well I can assure Mr Livi that I'm a stickler for taping razors and that razor had zero spine ware coming in or going back out, and yes Mr Livi I have honed every custom razor out there and still do on a weekly basis and the razor I recieved from Gary was not fit for purpose the edged just kept breaking down and crumbling away, Mr Livi sometimes shit happens just Man up and admit one just slipped through the QC net and put it right I'm not someone who as beef with you I have never owned a Livi razor but I have honed many of them, some of the technical terminology you are coming out with in that video is absolute rubbish, such as compromised geometry increased bevel size and so on, now my criticsm was of the steel don't try and turn it into something else, I hone 200 year old razors with massive spine ware and lots of geometry issues low and behold the steel is still good and they take a wonderful edge unlike your razor.

Even Babe Ruth didn't hit a home run every time he came up to bat ........ :shrug:

My apologies for the belated response.
We just had exam week here and besides the daily straight shave I found no time for my straight shaving hobby.

It is clear from Livi’s response that he is passionate about his razors and produced another slick and well-made +50 minute video.
Having witnessed his previous responses to signs of criticism, I felt it was only a question of time before he would vehemently present his side of the story.

I don't know how familiar Signor Livi is with forums, but having moderated forums myself, I would find it highly unusual if a moderator would contact a manufacturer and specifically ask him for a response to every critical comment that is posted.
I did note, however, that “razorguy”, who is the greatest Livi supporter I know and who - like Livi - also lives in Perugia, Italy and produces these videos in cooperation with Livi, seems to have stopped in September 2016 out of his own choosing to post on SRP, after his "My Mastro Livi razor, at last: a wonderful life experience" thread was closed by the moderator after a run of more than three years and 1053 contributions. So it cannot be said that Livi - through “razorguy” - did not have an opportunity to respond in a fashion typical for forums.

Unfortunately, this latest video does not address the points that I as straight shaver am most interested in:
1.) Why is it that several experienced straight shavers, whose only common contact is membership in a straight razor forum, have such a difficulty in getting an acceptable shave from some Livi razors when they are delivered?
2.) If stropping does not remedy the situation, what does Signor Livi suggest that should be done with a razor? Does he not believe that the most obvious answer for an experienced straight shaver would be a refresher and - only if necessary - resorting to increasingly lower grits until the situation is remedied?
3.) Why does Signor Livi seem to believe that someone would take a perfectly fine Livi razor and start honing “until death does us part” unless there was a good reason for honing?
4.) Why does Signor Livi omit to mention that I had explained in e-mail shortly after the razor was delivered, and also in the SRP thread in question, that this razor never provided an acceptable shave from the first shave on?
5.) Why do experienced shavers who have honed many razors successfully, including setting bevels, have such a trouble honing some of his razors?
6.) Why do honemasters, to whom these razors are sent, come to the same conclusion?
7.) Why is he so adamant that he does not involve his son, if - as long as a strict quality control is maintained - this could transfer his knowledge and ensure continuity of the line?
8.) What has the problem of a Livi razor not shaving properly to do with the fact why and by whom the business relationship with his former north American distributor was dissolved?
9.) Does Signor Livi mean to insinuate with such unwarranted comments that these criticisms of his work could be part of an orchestrated campaign against him?
10.) But most importantly: Would Signor Livi ever consider that the root cause of the problem was not excessive honing, but that one of his razors could possibly have provided an unsatifactory shave from the start?


When I tried initially a refresher, progressing only later to coarser grits and ever more frustrating attempts to solve this riddle, I had not expected that this razor would resist all my attempts - or the attempts of the honemaster I eventually sent it to.

Of course, I am guilty of mistakes myself:
In hindsight; instead of resorting to techniques that produced (and continue to produce) excellent results for me in the past and persisting, I should have returned the razor right there and then, after the first shaves, notwithstanding all the expense and hassles by courier companies and Italian Customs, and asked Signor Livi to either bring it to a state fit for the purpose, or refund the money.
As an excuse; I had just never imagined it could get that bad with a Livi razor, but now I know better.

In the end, this razor turned out to a rather unpleasant experience that bore no relation to the money and time invested in it and I would rather book this experience in my memory as "lesson learnt".

I had buried this chapter and asked Signor Livi to dispose of the razor as soon as he told me in his e-mail “The razor cannot be repaired because of severe damage caused by improper and excessive honing which rendered the blade useless”, but I am glad to hear that he somehow seemed to have been able to revive his lost son contrary to his own e-mail and wish him the enjoyment with it that I could never find.


My apologies to all for this lengthy reply and I do hope that I can close this chapter now for once and for all.



B.

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Originally Posted by beluga

As an excuse; I had just never imagined it could get that bad with a Livi razor, but now I know better.

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I'm sorry to hear that you got a lemon and couldn't get satisfaction from the vendor. I understand Mastro Livi vehemently defending his reputation, but had he simply sent you a replacement, regardless of the damage he'd be seen as a hero instead of a bum. Honey rather than vinegar is always preferable.

I've had a half dozen of Livi custom Damascus razors and all of them were great in quality of shave, and in workmanship. AFAIK, this recent batch of what I assume are production, rather than custom razors, is the first time there has been criticism by multiple end users.

Whether the rumor that Mastro's son Luca is involved in the razor manufacturing is spurious, or factual, I don't have a clue. I just wish he would have handled this differently. It would have been a happier outcome for all concerned.

I'll preface my comments with a few caveats ..

I've never owned a Livi razor. never seen a Livi in person and obviously never shaved with a Livi. Further, I have no dog in this fight!
I have friends that have owned Livi razors, now and in the past, and I trust their judgments implicitly. They are not new to the community or straight razors in general, but I will post my opinions only!

Personally, I do not believe that Signor Livi did himself any favors in his lengthy rebuttal. He singled out gentlemen that posted, IMO, valid criticisms. He did post photos of a razor that was obviously honed improperly, but after watching the video, I now understand why Mastro Livi does not recommend work on stones with his razors, but depends on pasted strops. There does not appear to be a completely straight or flat surface on the razor to hone off, because of the total use on the hands and eyes. Now, I'm the first to recognize a Craftsmen's skills, but what of the end user for maintenance?
Moreso, Mastro Livi expounded on the destruction of the razor's "geometry," yet, Livi grinds and grinds on the steel, and I never saw one single measuring tool in use. Unfortunately, the geometry he speaks of cannot be judged by eye, regardless on one's skill, as if it were an artistic impression. I was a metalworker my entire working life. As a Tool & Die Maker building and maintaining compound and progressive dies, our cutting medium was sheet metal rather than whiskers, so there are marked differences, but there are overlaps also, so I consider myself a bit more able to judge.
So, while I have a few Custom razors, I deal with people that work and think the way I do. With precision, mathematics and calculation. There nothing wrong with artistry, but the other considerations must be met first.
As far as the utility of the steel for it's intended purpose, I'm unfamiliar with the steel in question or it's heat treatment, but there is a good reason why our steel die sections were most often sent out for professional heat treatment. The process can be tricky, and without proper and specialized equipment, the chance of ruining an item that took many hours to produce is always a possibility.

I have nothing against Mastro Livi, the razors he produces or his customers that obviously love his work. Lets just say that a Livi razor is not my style, and even moreso after watching the video of Mastro Livi in action ... not only in the regrind of the razor in question, but also in naming and denigrating his customers, some of them long time customers....

It just left a bad taste in my mouth...

My $.02 only!!

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Originally Posted by Druid

Personally, I do not believer that Signor Livi did himself any favors in his lengthy rebuttal. He singled out gentlemen that posted, IMO, valid criticisms. He did post photos of a razor that was obviously honed improperly, but after watching the video, I now understand why Mastro Livi does not recommend work on stones with his razors, but depends on pasted strops. There does not appear to be a completely straight or flat surface on the razor to hone off, because of the total use on the hands and eyes. Now, I'm the first to recognize a Craftsmen's skills, but what of the end user for maintenance?

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They made their complaints public, so I still see nothing wrong with his publicly defending himself.

It is not correct "that Livi does not recommend work on stones with his razors." He does not recommend incorrect or excessive use of hones. That is not the same thing. Did you notice that he honed the razor after he re-ground it? You are just plain wrong on this.

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Originally Posted by Druid

Moreso, Mastro Livi expounded on the destruction of the razor's "geometry," yet, Livi grinds and grinds on the steel, and I never saw one single measuring tool in use. Unfortunately, the geometry he speaks of cannot be judged by eye, regardless on one's skill, as if it were an artistic impression. I was a metalworker my entire working life. As a Tool & Die Maker building and maintaining compound and progressive dies, our cutting medium was sheet metal rather whiskers, so there are marked differences, but there are overlaps also, so I consider myself a bit more able to judge.
So, while I have a few Custom razors, I deal with people that work and think the way I do. With precision, mathematics and calculation. There nothing wrong with artistry, but the other considerations must be met first.

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How does your experience as a metalworker have any bearing on whether or not you are "able to judge?" How many razors have you made? He's been doing it for what, 60 years? I'm pretty sure that his "total use on the hands and eyes" is quite capable of creating fantastic shavers without "mathematics and calculation" with more than enough "precision" for a razor. Respectfully, I am of the opinion that you cannot project your tool and die experience onto razor making.

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Originally Posted by Druid

As far as the utility of the steel for it's intended purpose, I'm unfamiliar with the steel in question or it's heat treatment, but there is a good reason why our steel die sections were most often sent out for professional heat treatment. The process can be tricky, and without proper and specialized equipment, the chance of ruining an item that took many hours to produce is always a possibility.

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Do you seriously believe that heat treatment requires "proper and specialized equipment?" All those vintage razors we play with, how many of them do you think were heat treated with such "proper and specialized equipment?" I'm pretty sure that Livi has the requisite equipment and experience.

Gents this is bumping up against our No Vendor Bashing policy

I am closing this temporarily for the whole Mod team to read through and see what they think

Thank you for understanding