The different razor grinds

Hello,

in the last months I have seen a lot of questions and confusion concerning the different razor grinds. Particulary the difference between a bellied full hollow and a "normal" full hollow blade.
But also regarding the graduation from wegde to 1/4 hollow and 1/2 hollow.
That´s why I have made a comparative photo of the different grinds. There are some existing charts of the different grinds, but those are only drawings and do not necessarely correspond to the reality.
Of course this is only the graduation like I see it, others may have another opinion, but I think this can be helpful to get an idea of how hollow a straight razor is and in which way it is ground.

Here is the chart:

http://www.koraat-knives.at/fotos/sc...allgrinds2.jpg

best regards,
Ulrik

Ulrik, thank you for sharing the great photos and your experience--these are great visuals, and I hope a mod will pin your excellent post!

Thanks Ulrik. Another point of confusion is that it is difficult to compare grinds on a narrow razor like a 4/8"-5/8" to a larger one like a 7/8"-8/8 because of the difference in the amount of steel in the blade.

Man, I always drool over your bellied razor grinds from afar... maybe someday I'll be able to afford one to see up close ;)

I would love to see a video explanation of how these grinds are achieved.

Hi I’m new to this forum and I have 2 full hallow dovos and a good dollar. I noticed while shaving the dovos provide lots of feedback. When I’m doing light passes it’s almost difficult to keep the razor controlled: often when doing against the grain. The gold dollar seems slightly “beefier” and easier to control. I’m wondering if a beefier grind is up my alley.. does everyone have a similar experience? I was thinking to try a 1/4 or near wedge.. any experiences on grind and control: feedback or am I opening a can of worms?

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Originally Posted by Desolation

Hi I’m new to this forum and I have 2 full hallow dovos and a good dollar. I noticed while shaving the dovos provide lots of feedback. When I’m doing light passes it’s almost difficult to keep the razor controlled: often when doing against the grain. The gold dollar seems slightly “beefier” and easier to control. I’m wondering if a beefier grind is up my alley.. does everyone have a similar experience? I was thinking to try a 1/4 or near wedge.. any experiences on grind and control: feedback or am I opening a can of worms?

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Nothing wrong with trying different grinds to see which you like best. All grinds will shave equally well if honed well but feel different in use. The more hollow the grind the more you will hear the sound like when you scrape toast as you shave.

Bob

I'm a fan of Ulriks bellied hollows they are sweet shavers, just love the 14 blanks you are using.

Hi,

I am glad that the chart is helpfull!

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I would love to see a video explanation of how these grinds are achieved.

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I have no videos for all types of grinds, but I have made a simple sketch with paint to illustrate how the more complex grinds, like the bellied and the full hollow, are made.
The circles are the grinding wheels/stones (depending on the technique used)

http://www.koraat-knives.at/fotos/sc...hliffklein.jpg

And here is a detail view. The blue part is the cross-section of a full hollow and the blue + the grey and the red areas is the cross-section of a bellied full hollow.

http://www.koraat-knives.at/fotos/sc...liffdetail.jpg

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celticcrusader

I'm a fan of Ulriks bellied hollows they are sweet shavers, just love the 14 blanks you are using.

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I am glad to hear that :-)



mfg
Ulrik

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Originally Posted by Desolation

Hi I’m new to this forum and I have 2 full hallow dovos and a good dollar. I noticed while shaving the dovos provide lots of feedback. When I’m doing light passes it’s almost difficult to keep the razor controlled: often when doing against the grain. The gold dollar seems slightly “beefier” and easier to control. I’m wondering if a beefier grind is up my alley.. does everyone have a similar experience? I was thinking to try a 1/4 or near wedge.. any experiences on grind and control: feedback or am I opening a can of worms?

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When I first started I found heavier razors easier, now I enjoy very hollow razors much more.

I was just the opisite as i found the full hollows to cut the whiskers better and still to this day feel the same. As far as the angle, i find the lesser angle is easier to see so it works great with a full hollow for me. YMMV as they say.

Very interesting! Good to see the difference from in opinion. Guess the best way to find out is getting a different grind. Would you all recommend going full blown in the opposite direction ( near wedge) or dipping toes into the water with something middle of the road (say 1/4 grind) and is there a big difference?

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Originally Posted by Desolation

Would you all recommend going full blown in the opposite direction ( near wedge) or dipping toes into the water with something middle of the road (say 1/4 grind) and is there a big difference?

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I own a 7/8 near wedge Wosty so I knew how that grind shaved before I bought the 8/8 near wedge Koraat. It's a happy treat when Ulrik's razor comes up in rotation.

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Originally Posted by Desolation

Very interesting! Good to see the difference from in opinion. Guess the best way to find out is getting a different grind. Would you all recommend going full blown in the opposite direction ( near wedge) or dipping toes into the water with something middle of the road (say 1/4 grind) and is there a big difference?

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Along with grind consider the blade size also so you can compare apples to apples.

Bob

Yes: very good suggestion.. thank you

Very nice pictures and explanation Ulrik, thanks a lot.
Allow me one remark. Some of the old Solingen grinders would not consider the grinds you show in your first two pictures as full-hollow. The full hollow status is determined by the diameter of the last grinding wheel you use and according to the literature this diameter is 2 times the width of the blade. But I have seen old grinders that use diameters of only one time the width of the blade. Means for a 8/8 full hollow, the last wheel they used was a bit less than 30mm in diameter and they are really grinding deep in the blade towards the edge. You may call this extra-hollow or whatever today. Just as a complement to your explanation and wonderful work.

Best regards Peter

Hello Peter,

thank you for this additional information. This is surely the best definition for a full hollow grind, since it is related to the actual blade width, that makes comparison between different blade sizes easier.
The second of the two first razors shown in this thread follows this rule, blade width is 24mm and the last grinding wheel used is about 50mm. 30mm wouldn´t be possible for me, since I make the grinds side by side on the beltgrinder and that´s just to small (but who knows, maybe I´ll give it a try someday :-) )
Since I only make smiling blades a traditional hollow grinding machine (which would make the grinding a lot easier) won´t work with my blades.

best regards,
Ulrik

Great pictures Ulrik, stunning precision work, very informative, thanks for taking the time to do this. you should update the post with the different point styles, (I know there are posts with them already, would be nice (easier) for the newer members to get all the visuals in one post.

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Originally Posted by Ulrik

There are some existing charts of the different grinds, but those are only drawings and do not necessarely correspond to the reality.
Of course this is only the graduation like I see it, others may have another opinion

best regards,
Ulrik

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I tend to think of the grind in simple terms. I look at the thickness of the blade at the midpoint of the grind. A full wedge is self explanatory. If the thickness is 75% of a full wedge, I call that a 1/4 hollow. If it is 50%, a half hollow, etc. If it's about as thin as possible it's a full hollow, and if a belly is left it's bellied.

I arrived at this out of a desire for a simple mathematical description of the grind, as comparing real razors to hand drawn charts was not very definitive to me.

I've recently come to the conclusion that what I call 1/4 hollow is probably thinner than what most would call 1/4 hollow. Oh well, I rarely deal with those heavy grinds anyway.

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Originally Posted by Desolation

Hi I’m new to this forum and I have 2 full hallow dovos and a good dollar. I noticed while shaving the dovos provide lots of feedback. When I’m doing light passes it’s almost difficult to keep the razor controlled: often when doing against the grain. The gold dollar seems slightly “beefier” and easier to control. I’m wondering if a beefier grind is up my alley.. does everyone have a similar experience? I was thinking to try a 1/4 or near wedge.. any experiences on grind and control: feedback or am I opening a can of worms?

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For some the feedback is good.
The heavy razors tend to make friends early. The thinner grinds are harder to hone correctly
in my experience but will hone faster and sharper once you get used to them.
Heavy grinds like the GD once shave ready seem to find early friends.

You will find that they are all good just different.

And worms are good for the soil and for fishing.

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

I would love to see a video explanation of how these grinds are achieved.

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Yes please, this is a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Flamez

Yes please, this is a great idea.

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Start with a simple grind.
https://youtu.be/2fAXTWUrzMo
Note how hot the steel gets which is why water is important
after heat treating. Rough grinding like heavy hammer forged
blanks is the "easy" part.

Double wheels..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVB0qkRF1c

Dovo factory.
https://youtu.be/jtAl-drQ1XM

So by changing the diameter of the wheels and the spacing a lot of grinding tricks
are very possible.
Precision is important, heat treating cannot be abused.

The different grinds can add stability.

Old wet grinding wheels will have a different diameter and can remove a lot of steel
up near the spine and then a larger wheel set can hone in thinning the blade itself.
In two passes a ridge can be left.

Most hand made blades are single belt sanded and take a lot of skill
to get the grind correct and not mess up the tempter.

Thin, highly polished retaining an ideal temper is difficult and the
singing is proof to some buyers.

Modern steel and a solid home made wet grinding jig should be able to
make some fine home ground razors if you have a machine shop and
want to make the jig. Safety covers please..

I learned to shave with a full hollow 5/8 Dovo a few months ago, and stayed with it to learn that razor well, and to be able to hone it to keep it shaving up to speed. I recently added a Brian Brown 1/2 hollow belly grind in 6/8, and prefer this razor. The Dovo does offer a bit more feedback, but the BB razor still gives me plenty of feedback, and it shaves more effortlessly than the smaller razor, and fits my hand better as the blade has more beef, and heft to it. I think that most any razor can provide good shaving results as long as it is sharp, but straight shavers will ultimately gravitate to blades that have that sweet spot as far as feel, and comfort. I figure my next one will be something in a 7/8.

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Originally Posted by skimonster

I learned to shave with a full hollow 5/8 Dovo a few months ago, and stayed with it to learn that razor well, and to be able to hone it to keep it shaving up to speed. I recently added a Brian Brown 1/2 hollow belly grind in 6/8, and prefer this razor. The Dovo does offer a bit more feedback, but the BB razor still gives me plenty of feedback, and it shaves more effortlessly than the smaller razor, and fits my hand better as the blade has more beef, and heft to it. I think that most any razor can provide good shaving results as long as it is sharp, but straight shavers will ultimately gravitate to blades that have that sweet spot as far as feel, and comfort. I figure my next one will be something in a 7/8.

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Really helpful! Thanks!