Razor issue -

Hello everyone,

I have a razor with an issue, and wondered if anyone has seen this before, whether it is common, whether it is a big problem.

As I was honing this razor, I noticed what I assumed were scratches on the blade (not the bevel). I didn't pay too much attention. As I honed, and examined the bevel, I was surprised to see some of the scratches continue on to the bevel (1). In one place, this 'scratch' goes right to the edge, and ends in a very small chip (2). On further examination, the entire blade is covered in a regular pattern of these 'scratches' (3). At first I assumed they were marks left from grinding; under magnification, it seems that they are in fact within the steel, and one or two of these marks on the blade are black, implying a fissure in the metal. It seem that they are not scratches, but something in the construction where the structure of the steel contains these fault lines.

Attachment 289988

Has anyone seen this before? Apart from the issue of the one fissure going to the edge and creating a chip, is this fatal?

The razor is vintage, Solingen, bakelite scales, I would guess not too old, maybe 50s, otherwise in NOS condition.

Thanks!

Pics would help greatly. It may be a series of cold shots.

I will see if there is a way to take pictures. These things are tiny, I use a jewellers loupe for magnification, so I'll see if I can take a picture which is useful.

Sounds like hairline cracks caused by poor quenching in the tempering process.

Here are a few pictures, let's see if they help.

The first two show one of the marks on the razor, which at first look like scratches but seem to be some sort of flaw which runs through the metal. This is the most visible one, but actually there are many similiar marks on the razor.

Attachment 290011
Attachment 290010

This third picture shows where one of these flaws runs through the bevel. Though you can't see it in the picture, the line running up to the bevel is visible in the bevel too, and terminates in the small chip at the edge.

Attachment 290012

Looks like what you get when you push too hard and the blade flexes and the hone hits the side of the blade rather than the bevel.

Cheers, Steve

Thanks Steve.

What the pictures don't show is that there are hundreds of these marks, and they are very regular, in exact rows, all the same length. some appear like indistinct markings in the metal, some appear like folds in the surface of the metal, and a few appear as black lines.

I could wonder if it was sanded with some really rough stuff and down over the bevel.
Not enough work on finer grits to get it gone.
Seems like grinding striations on the upper half and sideways sanding on the lower.

If it is just a surface issue, I don't particularly care. At first I thought it was scratches on the surface, but I don't think so, hence the post. The worst ones look like small cracks in the surface of the razor, 0.6-0.7mm long. Even if it is something structural, I'm still not bothered if I can get a good edge and it isn't going to lose pieces while shaving. However, where the fissure runs to the edge, there is a chip, and if it does run through the metal, trying to hone it out isn't going to work. It is a shame, because it is essentially a brand-new razor, but maybe the reason it never got used was because someone spotted this first time around.

You will have to see if you can hone back past the effected metal on the bevel and near the apex.

Yikes - and it was sanded horizontally as opposed to vertically....Tom and Rez are correct, lots of work to repair that bevel.

Think some slight breadknifing might be in order, get past the junk to some good steel?

I'm concerned that the whole thing is riddled with these fissures, and as soon as you get past one, you will be into another. It may not be possible to get to 'good steel'. I may shelve it, in the hope that I will get the chance for a more experienced eye to look at it. OR come back when my eye is more experienced!

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Yikes - and it was sanded horizontally as opposed to vertically

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What does that mean Phrank?

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

What does that mean Phrank?

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Looks like the sanding pattern goes along the length of the razor, as opposed to up and down, from spine to edge rather than what looks like to me from heel to toe.

Ah! That could have been the seller trying to tidy it up a bit before selling it.

Now were getting somewhere, you just bought it..
Haven't done any sanding.

Probably past owners doing, may also have ran it off the end of a hone a few times or a belt sander, who knows.

My guess would be a Dremel tool with a wire wheel created those vertical marks, including the hit to the bevel. After messing that up, sandpaper was used from heel to toe to remove the wire brush marks.

To make it shaveable again you will need to breadknife/hone past the chip, plus a bit more to get past any remaining crack.
To make it look new, it will take a lot of proper sanding to get past the vertical marks outs.

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Originally Posted by outback

Now were getting somewhere, you just bought it..
Haven't done any sanding.

Probably past owners doing, may also have ran it off the end of a hone a few times or a belt sander, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Yikes - and it was sanded horizontally as opposed to vertically....

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Guys, remember we are looking at the blade under magnification here. The spot on the paper by the blade in this picture is a point from a ballpoint pen, less than 1mm across.

Attachment 290208

Without magnification, the blade looks polished, and I guess the longitudinal striations probably came from polishing not sanding. The mark in the following picture is about 0.6-0.7mm long, without magnification it just looks like a bit of dust on the blade.

Attachment 290209

Those diagonal scratches running to the bevel do look like someone has had a quick go on this blade with a pretty coarse stone. It is obviously an amateur attempt, and luckily, they gave up very quickly, because there was no corresponding wear on the spine.

Without looking really closely, this razor looks to be in pretty nice condition:

Attachment 290210

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Originally Posted by RezDog

You will have to see if you can hone back past the effected metal on the bevel and near the apex.

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This!

Pretty much the only way we're going to be able to tell something about the blade



I'd try honing it for a bit, and use a microscope or a good loupe to check the edge's progression very carefully
If it's not in the apex shaving part, there' shouldn't be a problem

(I don't have a microscope, but things like this make me wanna get one)


I'd hone it up and check it carefully, I'd probably hone it up til it's shave ready and do a test shave just in case, you might not notice anything wrong with it whilst shaving when all is said and done

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RezDog

You will have to see if you can hone back past the effected metal on the bevel and near the apex.

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Originally Posted by TristanLudlow

This!

Pretty much the only way we're going to be able to tell something about the blade


I'd try honing it for a bit

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Ok! I get the message... :)

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

Ok! I get the message... :)

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Good luck and report back!

I hope it will turn out to be a good shaver in the end

Well, after a good session on the hones, it seems I got a nice solid edge. Tested it this evening, and though I'm no expert with a straight razor, I'm very happy. Thanks for all the advice.

Looking closely, where it seems to have been polished, the silver finish is wearing away in places to reveal a brassy-looking finish. I assume this is a bonding coating for a silvered finish, does this finish have a name?

We never did get a name for the issue with the flaws in the metal. There are more flaws, but they are a way off the bevel yet.

I think the flaws in the metal are called "looking extra hard for flaws in the metal". It is a fine looking blade and it shaves well. Your whiskers do not have a magnifier of any type and will not be at all the wiser when they hit the blade edge.

Fair enough! I do not have the experience to know when a problem is really a problem. As you say, it shaves well, and looks good, so onwards and upwards!

Sometimes when using high magnification a flaw looks like it would be a problem and really is just blown out of all proportion by the high magnification. Personally I don't want to drive myself crazy using high magnification so if I don't see it with a 10X loupe there is no problem. There have been times when I have found a tiny chip in the edge using a loupe after a perfectly fine shave. Go figure.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Sometimes when using high magnification a flaw looks like it would be a problem and really is just blown out of all proportion by the high magnification. Personally I don't want to drive myself crazy using high magnification so if I don't see it with a 10X loupe there is no problem. There have been times when I have found a tiny chip in the edge using a loupe after a perfectly fine shave. Go figure.

Bob

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Completely agree with Bob. I use a loupe when I’m doing a major bevel reset or a first time honing on a razor, but if it shaves well, that is the real test.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Sometimes when using high magnification a flaw looks like it would be a problem and really is just blown out of all proportion by the high magnification. Personally I don't want to drive myself crazy using high magnification so if I don't see it with a 10X loupe there is no problem. There have been times when I have found a tiny chip in the edge using a loupe after a perfectly fine shave. Go figure.

Bob

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Thanks Bob. A jeweller's loupe is all I have too. As someone gaining experience honing razors (and enjoying the process!), I find a bit of magnification very useful in telling me how the stone and the blade are interacting. And at this stage, I have more questions than answers! And as you say, the interesting thing is that the good shave is not always easy to predict using reductive criteria. Art meets science I guess.

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

Thanks Bob. A jeweller's loupe is all I have too. As someone gaining experience honing razors (and enjoying the process!), I find a bit of magnification very useful in telling me how the stone and the blade are interacting. And at this stage, I have more questions than answers! And as you say, the interesting thing is that the good shave is not always easy to predict using reductive criteria. Art meets science I guess.

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Actually it's easier than you think.

You can have all kinds of defects in a razor but only certain ones will affect the shave at all. Even defects like chips are often times at the extremes of the razor and rarely come in contact with your face so they too have little affect on the shave. Even defects that might suggest shave issues may or may not be a factor depending on the size of the defect. Really just practical horse sense in many cases.

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

Thanks Bob. Art meets science I guess.

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You're welcome. Truer words were never spoken. Honing is the art of properly applying some science. Something that looks deceptively simple till you actually try it.

Bob

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Actually it's easier than you think.

You can have all kinds of defects in a razor but only certain ones will affect the shave at all. Even defects like chips are often times at the extremes of the razor and rarely come in contact with your face so they too have little affect on the shave. Even defects that might suggest shave issues may or may not be a factor depending on the size of the defect. Really just practical horse sense in many cases.

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I was thinking this myself, I have a couple of nice razors lying around, but they have a small chip in the edge.

I was thinking about honing them out, but that would get rid of a lot of valuable metal, so I concluded for myself that I will just get 'em shave ready and see if the chip will be an issue or not; thanks for the reminder!

Anyhow, in the end the razor came up really nicely, just took a bit of honing to get an edge not affected by those little fissures in the metal, and it is one of my favourites now. Thanks!

Montgomery I have found, as you have said, persistent effort and not absolute perfection is what matters. Arm hair test, thumb test really don't matter as long as the blade shaves my face smooth. The true test and the only test that matters is the shave test. Thanks for your question, it was a good one.

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

...where it seems to have been polished, the silver finish is wearing away in places to reveal a brassy-looking finish. I assume this is a bonding coating for a silvered finish, does this finish have a name?

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Turns out that it looks like this razor is nickel-plated.

To me it seems to be too many to be caused by someone that does not know what they are doing in restoring or honing. It almost seems like from the factory to be so many striations. But then again, someone could have worked hard on that...LOL

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Originally Posted by Michael70

To me it seems to be too many to be caused by someone that does not know what they are doing in restoring or honing. It almost seems like from the factory to be so many striations. But then again, someone could have worked hard on that...LOL

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I hadn't come across a plated razor before, but turns out this is one, as evidenced by the yellowish tinge to the metal where it has been polished. This is not related to the questions about the razor which were the subject of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael70

To me it seems to be too many to be caused by someone that does not know what they are doing in restoring or honing. It almost seems like from the factory to be so many striations. But then again, someone could have worked hard on that...LOL

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Yes, I think you are absolutely right. I think the fact that the nickel plating is pretty much undisturbed precludes the razor having been messed with too much..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Yikes - and it was sanded horizontally as opposed to vertically....Tom and Rez are correct, lots of work to repair that bevel.

Think some slight breadknifing might be in order, get past the junk to some good steel?

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Are you saying sanding should only be done vertically?

Yes ..!!
You can easily foil a blade by sanding lengthwise,too much. The only time I sand in that direction, is a few passes before the next grt. of sandpaper. Other than that, its spine too edge, moving up n down the length of the blade. I destroyed the straight that I had from the beginning of my journey, and thru many years of service, sanding the wrong way, but I had to have one of those bright n shiny blades like everyone else. :banghead:

But hey.!! It brought me to this place, and I've learned, restored, and accumulated more than I ever thought possible. :tu

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Originally Posted by outback

Yes ..!!
You can easily foil a blade by sanding lengthwise,too much. The only time I sand in that direction, is a few passes before the next grt. of sandpaper. Other than that, its spine too edge, moving up n down the length of the blade. I destroyed the straight that I had from the beginning of my journey, and thru many years of service, sanding the wrong way, but I had to have one of those bright n shiny blades like everyone else. :banghead:

But hey.!! It brought me to this place, and I've learned, restored, and accumulated more than I ever thought possible. :tu

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Well, that's good to know. If foiling is the issue, I guess wedges are safe for the most part.
I always thought sanding lengthwise helped you sand more evenly. I can see why the magnetic sanding jig is so crucial for you guys now.