Unknown razors - does anyone recognise?

I have four unidentified razors, and wonder if the members know anything about them. Three of them are here:

Attachment 292034

The first is a pretty heavy 6/8 blade, and looks to be stramped 'Ramon Paris' on the front, with no stamp on the reverse:

Attachment 292035

The second is a light 3/8 blade, and is stamped 'RK Paris' with a backwards R on the front, and 'A RÖHNER PLAUEN' on the reverse:

Attachment 292036Attachment 292037

The third is marked '5101 IDEAL' on the face and 'L.P.' in an oval on the reverse:

Attachment 292038Attachment 292039

Could this be a Louis Perlman budget razor? I say budget, because the scales seem to be some sort of cardboard; there is a tiny bit of black paint on one part, but this finish has otherwise come off. As an aside, does anyone know how to make this type of scale serviceable?

Attachment 292040Attachment 292041

Lastly, there is a Wiener Schaber stamped '43 Wiener Schaber' on the front, and 'KAROLUS' on the reverse:

Attachment 292042Attachment 292043

Curious to know if any members know the origins of these razors. The first one looks like a nice old-school blade, I'm looking forward to trying it.

The first would seem to be a French razor, 'Ramon fabricant à Paris' means 'Ramon, manufacturer/maker in(at) Paris'.

The second would seem to be a German razor as Plauen is a town in Germany, and the razor was probably made for 'RK' in Paris, probably a shop, wholesaler, etc just as many of the American hardware store razors were made in Germany.

No idea about the other two, but cardboard scales sound interesting. Please let us know how they turn out. I would suggest applying black (or whatever color) cashew lacquer and sanding between coats. The Japanese have a defined way of building up this lacquer used for example, in the finishing of katana scabbards. This method could well be more expensive than you want! Marine spar varnish would likey work too.

Good luck!

Cheers, Steve

I'm away from my books at the moment, but the Ideal was a Sheffield blade. And the Wiener Schaber Karolus is a Solingen blade.
That "layered cardboard" may be pressed leather that has dried out.

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Originally Posted by Steve56

...cardboard scales sound interesting. Please let us know how they turn out. I would suggest applying black (or whatever color) cashew lacquer and sanding between coats. The Japanese have a defined way of building up this lacquer used for example, in the finishing of katana scabbards. This method could well be more expensive than you want! Marine spar varnish would likey work too.

Good luck!

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I think that is the basic idea. The biggest issue is that the scales are not stiff enough to keep the hinge tight, so the razor is wobbling around and catching on the scales on both sides. I think I'm going to find some sort of epoxy or other substance to soak the scales in, then press them flat and straight while it sets, and then finish the scales. I was also thinking shellac, let's see. It is a shame to take the scales off, but I can't see any other alternative in this situation.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

I'm away from my books at the moment, but the Ideal was a Sheffield blade. And the Wiener Schaber Karolus is a Solingen blade.

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Thanks! I guessed the Karolus was a German blade, but I haven't found any reference to that maker. As for the Ideal, I have no idea, I assumed it was also a German blade from the way it looks and the model number, but I am no expert.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

That "layered cardboard" may be pressed leather that has dried out.

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Yes, it could well be. I don't think this will change my approach.

Obviously, this will be a totally gratuitous restoration, but at least it keeps me out of trouble...

Be careful of shellac (shell-lac) as it's extremely soluble in alcohol where cashew lacquer and varnish are not, or not so much. If you've just splashed a lot of your favorite after shave with alcohol in it and grab your razor, the result could be not-so-good.

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Be careful of shellac (shell-lac) as it's extremely soluble in alcohol where cashew lacquer and varnish are not, or not so much. If you've just splashed a lot of your favorite after shave with alcohol in it and grab your razor, the result could be not-so-good.

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Good point Steve! Ok, I'll think carefully about what to use.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Be careful of shellac (shell-lac) as it's extremely soluble in alcohol where cashew lacquer and varnish are not, or not so much. If you've just splashed a lot of your favorite after shave with alcohol in it and grab your razor, the result could be not-so-good.

Cheers, Steve

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Somehow, in my mind, after reading this comment, a light went on in my mind, and I drew the conclusion that razor scales should therefore be alcohol-resistant. In the same lot that the razors which are the subject of this thread came in, there are a bunch of other razors, all pretty grubby. So, bearing in mind that razor scales need to be alcohol-proof, I decided to try to clean some of the gunk off with alcohol. THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA WITH CELLULOID SCALES!!!! They went sticky and gloopy, luckily I pulled them out before serious damage was done, but the alcohol left a white frosting, and underneath that, the scales have lost their shine. On the plus side, it really brought out the camphor smell, so now we have a new test for celluloid, sadly not non-destructive.

Erm... anyone got any suggestions how to polish celluloid scales?

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

Erm... anyone got any suggestions how to polish celluloid scales?

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Slowly, by hand, with wetndri sandpapers. You can use buffing compounds at the end but watch for heat if you use a buffer.

Alcohol will also destroy acrylic scales if they have been smoothed using a flame rather than regular polishing.

They can likely stand short exposure to small amounts of alcohol like in after shave. What was the purpose of soaking them in alcohol?

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

They can likely stand short exposure to small amounts of alcohol like in after shave. What was the purpose of soaking them in alcohol?

Cheers, Steve

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Alcohol is very good at softening and getting rid of gunk, and won't cause rust. It also sterilises and is non-toxic, and evaporates quickly. The razors were pretty dirty, caked with some sort of hard waxy residue, especially on the scales and in the jimps.

Anyway, I cleaned the white residue off one of them with some wet and dry, and polished them, and they are fine. Took a while, but kept me of ebay for a while. Four more to do...

Always start with the milest stuff and work to more aggressive options,. Soap and warm water will dissolve old soap crud... and it won't hurt scales and steel.

But it may take a while! Use an aggressive non-metallic brush. If you have to soak something, add baking soda or something to make the soak basic, not acidic.

Cheers, Steve

Just something to add to the database, as it were...

This concerns the first of these three razors:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montgomery

I have four unidentified razors, and wonder if the members know anything about them. Three of them are here:

Attachment 292034

The first is a pretty heavy 6/8 blade, and looks to be stramped 'Ramon Paris' on the front, with no stamp on the reverse:

Attachment 292035

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I assumed it was a 'Ramon', but found no other reference to this razor. However, it seems that this razor is a 'Kamon' not a 'Ramon': I saw this strop offered online:

Attachment 310402Attachment 310403

I think it is safe to assume that it is the same maker. The address is Rue de Cléry 64.

Mystery solved!

It's HAMON .
https://zupimages.net/up/19/34/8qcy.jpg

I wondered if that was Hamon.I 've heard of them. That does look like an R on the tang and it also looks like a K though on the label.

https://zupimages.net/up/19/34/drgq.jpg
https://zupimages.net/up/19/34/6qi2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ferdi

It's HAMON .
https://zupimages.net/up/19/34/8qcy.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

I wondered if that was Hamon.I 've heard of them. That does look like an R on the tang and it also looks like a K though on the label.

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Goddamn, you guys are right! Seems there could be a little gold missing on that strop box which makes it look like a 'K'. Good work, got there in the end!

I clean all razors with WD40, spray them down, especially between the scales, let it soak for a few minutes then scrub with a toothbrush and get between the scales with a paper towel wrapped wooden coffee stir stick with the end clipped off for scraping.

Let them dry and hand sand with 600 up to 1k then polish with any good metal polish, Mass, Flitz, 3M Marine or Novus. Or use a buffer with fine greased compound, Green Chrome on a sewn wheel is a good start.

If you want a quick easy hard finish, use CA (Super Glue) use thin coats to absorb, spread with a small silicone spatula. You can use a kicker to apply several coats in a short amount of time.

You have to be careful with old Celluloid, you can start a chemical reaction with alcohol that can cause some Celluloid to kickoff.

What you think is cardboard, may be Celluloid that has broken down, the rust pattern on the razor is very consistent with cell rot. If the razors were stored together, one razor could cause all of them to rust. I have seen broken down Celluloid that looks like that.

I once saw a razor in a display case with the early stages of cell rot, there were several razors, knives and other metal objects in the case. I advised the store employee about the case and cell rot. I returned to the store about 3 months later that summer, and all of the razors, knives and anything metal in the case was rusted. The razor was completely eaten.

If it is brittle and smells, I would replace the scales. Horn is inexpensive, very easy to work and looks beautiful.

A rusted pin is a Cell rot indicator, sometimes it is the wedge that has kicked off. White, clear and patterned scales are the most susceptible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

...What you think is cardboard, may be Celluloid that has broken down, the rust pattern on the razor is very consistent with cell rot. If the razors were stored together, one razor could cause all of them to rust. I have seen broken down Celluloid that looks like that...

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Thanks for the input. I'm very sure it isn't celluloid, it is too fibrous and flexible. I'm going with some sort of leather at the moment, but the line dividing reconstituted leather and some other types of pressed board is a pretty fine one. As you say, the rust profile is consistent of celluloid rot, but it is also consistent with steel being in contact with a porous and absorbent material, especially if the environment is slightly damp. And if any further confirmation is needed, I took the scales off about a year ago and cleaned the blade up, and since then everything has been in a plastic bag together, and there is no further rust.

Anyway, I'm not going to worry too much about the precise identity of the material. Given that it is apparently absorbent and flexible, I plan to proceed as you suggest, I will treat the scales with low-viscosity CA, then clamp them flat, so that I hopefully end up with stiff and stable scales. I will then finish with CA as you suggest. I did look into finishing pressed or boiled leather with hard waxes, but I felt the expense wasn't really proportionate to the quality and interest of the razor. However, I do plan to experiment with leather and hard waxes as a scale material in the future.

The only thing that concerns me is that if it is a waxed leather, that might not stick to the CA too well, or absorb it. But let's give it a try and see. If I ruin the scales, it won't be too hard to find another solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve56

...cardboard scales sound interesting. Please let us know how they turn out. I would suggest applying black (or whatever color) cashew lacquer and sanding between coats. The Japanese have a defined way of building up this lacquer used for example, in the finishing of katana scabbards. This method could well be more expensive than you want! Marine spar varnish would likey work too.

Good luck!

Cheers, Steve

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

...
That "layered cardboard" may be pressed leather that has dried out.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

...
If you want a quick easy hard finish, use CA (Super Glue) use thin coats to absorb, ...

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Got around to sorting out the 'IDEAL' razor at the beginning of this thread.

First point to make is that I am now 95%+ certain that the scales are some sort of pressed cardboard, not leather. They are fibrous, the fibres come apart when the scales are scraped, under magnification you could see how the material was folded in on itself, and when I scraped a few fibres off and burned them they smelled exactly like burning paper.

In the end, I took the simplest path to making the scales serviceable, while also staying true to the very humble nature of this razor and its condition. Here it is:

Attachment 317843Attachment 317844

Essentially, I cleaned up the cardboard, in particular removing any remnants of the black film which was still attached in places. Then, after considerable deliberation I followed the suggestion from @Euclid440 and used CA to seal the scales. After a quick test on the inside of one of the scales, I first painted the scales black with Indian ink. The next step was to slather both scales in CA, then press them in waxed paper between wood blocks until the CA was dry. The faces of the scales were good to go, the edges needed a bit of sanding and touching up. I did consider layering up the CA, then sanding and polishing, but I felt that a really fine finish was out of whack with both the humble origins of the razor, and its condition. In the end, I actually like the finish of the CA pressed in waxed paper.

After working them, I was concerned that there may have been some cracks/gaps/holes in the CA finish, so I gave the whole thing a couple of coats of very thin lacquer (shellac). I decided to stay away from this as a finish, but for sealing I thought it would be fine.

The wedge was not in fact a wedge at all, it was exactly parallel, and didn't like the way the scales were sitting on first assembly, so I sanded the celluloid wedge slightly. The only other addition was to add brass wear washers, which I would have thought would be especially important on a soft and easily worn material like card.

*edit: I also backed the domed collars with flat washers in this instance, given the relative softness of the scale material.

The blade itself was simply polished with polishing compound and a felt wheel in the Dremel.

I'll hone this razor up, and try it out. If it is ok, I will add cardboard scales to the range of options, especially as an option to get a humble razor up and running.

One other thing, earlier in the thread it was posited that this might be a Sheffield blade; I have always felt that the appearance of the blade, the model number on the tang, and the whole feel of the thing was more Solingen. Any thoughts?

Many thanks!