Soviet rasors NOS - Impossible to take a beve,l or it is just me?

I bought these two Soviet era straight razors. They were made in the 70s and never used.
I tried to hone them with poor results. It seems impossible to eliminate the double bevel that I see with the magnifying loop.

I used the Nortons 220, 1000, 4000, 8000
The problem is I cannot create a decent bevel with the first two stones.

I am not the most experienced person in honing, but I manage to keep the rest of my 20 straight razors in excellent conditions and create a decent new bevel when needed.

Does anyone know anything about these kind or razors? Are they indeed impossible to accept a bevel, or the problem is me?
I am thinking of sending them to a professional to hone them, but I don't know if they worth it.

Attachment 301545

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From the seller: "Vintage Russian Straight Razor "Raketa"(Rocket) in Original Case,made at "STIZ" factory in Moscow in middle of 1970's. "



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Attachment 301548

From the seller: "Russian Straight Razor "Zarya"(Dawn) in Original Case NOS in factory grease. Made at "Moselectropribor" factory in Moscow in early 1980's. "

Are they stainless? The Norton guys could say how they work with SS.
Are they warped ?
Both could be a challenge.

I only have one Soviet razor which easily took a good edge using a Naniwa progression to 12K. Couldn't tell you the name of the model though. Never really heard much bad said about the blades or the steel.

Bob

I had one once and sold it. If I recall correctly it was a little hard, much like a US or French razor and it did ahave very well and help the edge well too. Personally I would drop the 220. It seems like way too much. I also typically hone with one layer of tape but if I’m being delayed in getting a nice apex a sometimes add a layer. The magic marker can also guide you too.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Are they stainless? The Norton guys could say how they work with SS.
Are they warped ?
Both could be a challenge.

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No, they are not stainless and they are not warped.

Hard steel maybe ?
It's possible a bevel was never set on them. They could be straight off the grinding wheel.

I'm not familiar with Russian razors, but I'm wondering if they might simply be RSO's. They look quite similar to a Pakistani razor I found, years ago.

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Originally Posted by outback

I'm not familiar with Russian razors, but I'm wondering if they might simply be RSO's. They look quite similar to a Pakistani razor I found, years ago.

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Could be.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Hard steel maybe ?
It's possible a bevel was never set on them. They could be straight off the grinding wheel.

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This was my impression as well. That's why I had to go down to 220grit stone. 1000 was not able to give them a bevel.
I will insist honing them until I completely destroy them or make them actually sharp.

I think Russian straight razors are real straight razors and not anything like the Pakistani RSOs I have read about.

All I used to set the bevel on mine was a 1K Naniwa. I have also read that the steel in Russian razors can be hard so I wonder if using a 220k hone is a good idea re chipping. Maybe lighten up on the pressure and take more time setting the bevel on a 1K stone?

Bob

If the razor has a double bevel, it is not necessary to eliminate the second bevel. If the steel is quite hard, the manufacturer may have used a second bevel to make sure they were honing all the way to the apex without removing so much steel. So rather than using a 220 grit stone trying to remove a lot of metal to produce a single bevel, you might consider using the Sharpie test to mark the bevel(s) and then try to use one or more layers of tape to insure that you are honing the bevel closest to the apex.

I have honed old razors on 220 grit before, but always regret doing so as removal of the large scratch marks takes a lot of work, especially if your next stone up is the 1K. It helps to have intermediate stones such as 400 and 800 grit to eliminate the scratches.

First use 2 layers of tape, It looks like you have lost a lot of the spine width.

I would reshape the heels on both. Use a small coin as a guide and bring the heel corner forward an 1/8 th to ¼ of an inch You are riding on the tang on both. Hard to tell from the photo if the white engraved one has a stabilizer. Honing on a stabilizer or the tang could give you a double bevel on the heel half of the blade.

You can also try a heel forward stroke if you do not want to reshape the heel. Ink will help you see your progress easier.

Yes, skip the 220 and re-set the bevel on the 1k. Use ink to check your progress and do not use too much pressure. Always use tape to set the bevel on problem razors. Once the bevel is set, then decide if you want to continue to use tape, but really there is not a good reason not to.

You have lost a lot of spine width needlessly and now may have to use tape to get a solid bevel.

I watch the swarf. If your getting very little on a low grit hone that's an indication that your steel is very hard. My personal way to deal with this is a 6 micron (4k grit equivalent) DMT. The plate doesn't dish and the diamond cut nicely without creating large scratches that require time to remove.

I have one similar to your second picture. Took a great edge relatively easily. As others have said, it looks from the picture like the tip end has notable hone wear...if it came with that it wasn’t NOS....although could just be the light...

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"Moselectropribor"

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Moselectropribor - Moscow Electrical devices plant (Мосэлектроприбор).
In 1983 the STIZ became a part the Moscow Electrical devices plant (Мосэлектроприбор).
The first razor from the top post was made in 1975, the second in 1981.
The quality of the later Soviet razors are poor.

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Originally Posted by Bill31521

I watch the swarf. If your getting very little on a low grit hone that's an indication that your steel is very hard. My personal way to deal with this is a 6 micron (4k grit equivalent) DMT. The plate doesn't dish and the diamond cut nicely without creating large scratches that require time to remove.

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Thank you for the advice but I do not own DMT hones so I am trying with what I have.
What would you suggest for a poor quality razor, with double bevel and very hard steel? Working on Norton 220grit until complete elimination of the double bevel and then going up to the 1000grit? Or starting from the beginning on the 1000grit and making thousands of passes until a bevel is made, or the razor is completely destroyed, or I get bored to death and throw it away (which is the most likely result)?

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Originally Posted by Storyvillenight

I have one similar to your second picture. Took a great edge relatively easily. As others have said, it looks from the picture like the tip end has notable hone wear...if it came with that it wasn’t NOS....although could just be the light...

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It is the light! There is some hone wear but not so much. The hone wear was made by me trying to hone them on the 220 grit. The razors came with no hone wear at all.
At the beginning I was using the tape and I was honing on 1000 grit, but after realizing that no bevel was being set, I went down to 220 grit. On that hone the tape does not survive more than 5 passes so I changed it 3-4 times and then I went without.

If the 220 is a Norton it dishes very quickly. You can try some 600 grit sandpaper on a flat surface like glass. Or go lower. Or put it aside for now and see about something else.

First verify the problem. As posted earlier, I suspect you are honing on the tang and stabilizer.

Ink the bevel and do a lap on a 1k, see if the edge is on the hone. You can also ink the tang and stabilizer and see where and if it is hitting.

If you don’t have a proper hone, you can simply glue some 400 and 600 wet and dry to a ceramic or glass tile. Here at Lowes hardware they sell 3X12 inch glass tiles for about $4 per tile. I am sure you could find a similar tile locally. I use a glass tile, it is surprising how not flat they are, but lap easily and quickly with a 300-grit lapping plate or wet and dry.

Lapping flat also makes the plate more efficient, by putting more grit in contact with the object to be honed.

All glass and ceramic tiles are not flat, but for a dollar at the dollar store you can buy a steel cookie sheet. Wet a piece of 220 and stick it to the bottom of the sheet, in a few minutes you can grind a ceramic or glass tile dead flat in a couple minutes.

Now with some spray glue, 3m 77 spray the lapped tile and glue on the grit of choice, probably any glue will work but I have only done this with 3m spray glue.
I would start with the 600 and hone as normal, make sure you use 2 layers of tape to protect the spine and make up for the missing steel from the spine.

Now if you are burning through tape you can hone with the spine off the hone just to get a bevel started. (NOTE This is an advanced technique and should only be used in extreme cases, not your garden variety honing.) Once you get a bevel started hone with the spine on the paper. Torque the razor to put most of the pressure on the edge not the spine.

First ink the bevel with a bright colored ink. Lay the razor on the hone lift the spine slightly off the hone, maybe a 32nd to 1/6th of an inch. Hold the razor normally, extend your index finger over the spine until it touches the stone or wet and dry and becomes a guide. Do a lap and see where you are removing ink. Once you get a bevel you can correct it later on the 1k but this technique is very stable.

I would use a heel forward stoke to hone the heel, where your issue seems to be. I still believe if you re shape the heel, it will resolve much of your problem.

Here is an old post on reshaping a heel, you can easily do it on a piece of 400, the heel steel is very thin. You can also make a low grit file by gluing wet and dry 320 or 400 to a wooden paint stir stick. File it to the shape needed. I use a diamond file for reshaping heels. You can also do it as I demonstrated by gluing wet and dry to a tile, then hone on the tile. (How to correct/reprofile a heel.)

Today I worked on one of them, the so called "РАКЕТА".
I used three layers of tape and reshaped the heel as suggested.

I started on the 220 grit to eliminate the double bevel and create a single bevel. I managed to get it! Then I moved to a 400 to 800 grit natural stone and then to Norton 1000, 4000, 8000, Chinese 12,000 and finally to the Japanese 20,000 hone. I applied a little pressure on all hones because I noticed that the razor does not lay perfectly flat on the hone.
I managed to get a decent-looking, polished bevel. I stropped and shaved.
It did not gave me a perfect shave, neither the most pleasant. However, I managed to bring the razor to a shave ready condition.

When I have time I will work on the other one.

Thank you you all for the commends, the suggestions, and the assistance!

I remember when I first started out honing I has a soviet razor and a TI my bevel setter was a norton 1k, I could not get a bevel set and I stopped trying to hone, (they are both very hard steel!!!) I then read a bit more on here and decided to give it one more try (but I bought a Chosera 1k) and that made a massive difference for me, granted the norton 1k is just athirst monster imho, if our house ever floods I will just throw that in the room and shut the door return in 2 mins and all will be dry.
Granted the Chosera 1k is not cheap but its been my best investment for sure, I do try other stones from time to time but never in the 1k department.