Mythical Vintage Steel

200 years ago they didn’t have all the Technologies that they have today. Microscopes, power hammers, chemical analysis programs, triple burner self regulating propane forges, etc. Yet despite this, they were able to produce this razor. The steel, it is probable, was made from sand and/or other natural materials and then hand forged and perfectly tempered by skill and experience. A blade that was ground perfectly and free of warps and twists that results in a thin even bevel. They were able to produce a steel that is, as good as, if not superior to the steel in more modern razors made with more technology. Not all blades can take the keen edge a Gok20k can produce. This razor did so with ease.

I wondered, what is it about this razor that is so enduring? The closeness and the smoothness of the shave? The mind boggling age of it? Sure, but so much more. The razor feels elegant in the hand, the balance is perfect, the tang is thin, the deep curve at the toe is actually useful in getting to the “hard to reach places”. The wedge grind is perfect, sturdy and substantial. The scales are still straight and true after two centuries. All of this accomplished by only skill and experience. Modern technology may set a person on the right path quicker but experience will travel that path much farther and that only comes with time.

I doubt the person who crafted this razor could have known that 200 years later it would be looked at, talked about and appreciated by people all over the world. I am sure it was one of many created. A tool. A mundane object and not a masterpiece except maybe to the smith at the time of finishing it. I am certain he could not have fathomed the appreciation people would have for his skill so far in the future.

It took a remarkable edge with ease and provided a stunning shave this morning. I pondered these things throughout the day and thought I would post this as a tribute to whoever it was that created this razor and the skill they possessed. After all, who hasn’t at one point pondered these things? It is one of the unique fascinations of this hobby.

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I always wondered why there is a fascination in some circles with the modern formulations of steel types wrt making straight razors. The older types of steel have performed perfectly well over time. Even stainless steel is 100+ years old. It only has to be good enough for the job at hand and more is just that more.

The many styles of vintage razors do have an elegance about them as well as feeling good in the hand. Today there has been a trend to razors with exaggerated features when combined together seems to loose that elegance, at least to me.

Just a crotchety old man rambling on.

Bob

Thank you for your ramblings Bob! It is just amazing that 200 years ago, this craftsman, gives up nothing in quality and he did it without all the bells and whistles. Just good ole plain skill and experience. We tend to think of steel this old as inferior to the newer alloys and processes. At least in this case, it is not.

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Originally Posted by Steel

Thank you for your ramblings Bob! It is just amazing that 200 years ago, this craftsman, gives up nothing in quality and he did it without all the bells and whistles. Just good ole plain skill and experience. We tend to think of steel this old as inferior to the newer alloys and processes. At least in this case, it is not.

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In the case of razor making the older steels still do their jobs well. The newer steels are much better at the different tasks we put them to today. The newer scale making materials has benefits over the older traditional materials too. I still like to see the newer materials used with an eye to tradition design forms though.

Bob

Nice post, Steel-Very thought-provoking. I too like to look at my oldest blades especially and ponder who made them, who they shaved, where they've been, etc. It's sad, but inevitable I suppose, that so many old world skills and crafts have been lost to history. Walk through any really old European cathedral, look at all the jaw-dropping details and think about what went into producing them-as you say, without any modern technology.

That said, I'm sure the new technology (to them) that they had near the end of the 18th century, at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, to grind those old razors was "cutting-edge" for its time.

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Originally Posted by Steel

200 years ago they didn’t have all the Technologies that they have today. Microscopes, power hammers, chemical analysis programs, triple burner self regulating propane forges, etc. Yet despite this, they were able to produce this razor. The steel, it is probable, was made from sand and/or other natural materials and then hand forged and perfectly tempered by skill and experience. A blade that was ground perfectly and free of warps and twists that results in a thin even bevel. They were able to produce a steel that is, as good as, if not superior to the steel in more modern razors made with more technology. Not all blades can take the keen edge a Gok20k can produce. This razor did so with ease.

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Nice post.. Could even have been made from that imported Swedish stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dannemora_mine

The notion of one person creating a razor from start to finish is sadly untrue. A few people; men, women and children would be involved in the process. Razors would be churned out quickly, with someone, potentially working in different sweatshops (yup sweatshop) on different days of the week. I believe it was also common for someone grinding to have separate piles for various makers in one sitting.
But, yes ol' steel is the best steel (to me), I enjoy the shave of old Sheffields considerably more than say Theirs Issard Carbonsong steel.

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

It's sad, but inevitable I suppose, that so many old world skills and crafts have been lost to history. Walk through any really old European cathedral, look at all the jaw-dropping details and think about what went into producing them-as you say, without any modern technology.

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Over here there has been a resurgence of the dying art of stone masonry and tradesmen are commanding top doller in the restoration of old buildings.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Over here there has been a resurgence of the dying art of stone masonry and tradesmen are commanding top doller in the restoration of old buildings.

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Yes, I heard years ago that there was a resurgence in the dying art of making thatched rooves for the same reason. There are a surprising number of arcane skill sets that do command top dollar.

Bob

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

The notion of one person creating a razor from start to finish is sadly untrue. A few people; men, women and children would be involved in the process. Razors would be churned out quickly, with someone, potentially working in different sweatshops (yup sweatshop) on different days of the week. I believe it was also common for someone grinding to have separate piles for various makers in one sitting.
But, yes ol' steel is the best steel (to me), I enjoy the shave of old Sheffields considerably more than say Theirs Issard Carbonsong steel.

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I have heard the same thing Mark. Wade & Butcher comes to mind, among others. I wonder if all companies were like that? Another consideration is this piece pre-dates Wade & Butcher, Mappin Webb, etc. “hey days” by a few decades. Either way, it is truly amazing quality that was accomplished a long time ago by people with knowledge and skill and you can certainly replace ‘him’ with ‘them’.

Love that early stuff.
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I have thought about this a bit since you posted it, so apparently it was truly thought provoking. It made me think of the Alfred Pendray story about him figuring out the wootz damascus steel. A craftsman and a true backyard tinkerer of the finest order. He is not alone, there are others around the world, in back yard workshops and barns, making handmade items and crucible steel. I’m my mind they are likely all figuring out old puzzles and creating their own artistry while imitating the past. The cottage industries have been getting stepped on by the large producers and pushed out of the market. I think that will become cyclical as large industry is relatively new in the history of man. Craftsman, tradesman, and hand made are all re-emerging. The idea of disposable is becoming distasteful in our modern era and the top quality products are returning to the shelf.
Thanks for the post, it did in fact get me thinking.
:-)

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Originally Posted by Steel

I have heard the same thing Mark. Wade & Butcher comes to mind, among others. I wonder if all companies were like that? Another consideration is this piece pre-dates Wade & Butcher, Mappin Webb, etc. “hey days” by a few decades. Either way, it is truly amazing quality that was accomplished a long time ago by people with knowledge and skill and you can certainly replace ‘him’ with ‘them’.

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100% agree, the quality of razors 150 plus years ago far surpass the likes of modern Dovo and Thiers Issard.

Mark-One thing that struck me in my travels around Europe and the UK was that virtually all of the really old buildings (Canterbury Cathedral, many old castles, etc. that are hundreds of years old) are either crumbling, or surrounded by scaffolding and workmen frantically trying to save them. I love that Europe is trying to preserve its cultural heritage, even as ultra-modern skyscrapers loom right beside them in many cases (as in London, for example). That many with unique archaic skills are making bank on this is also very cool.

And Shaun-It's interesting that you write "...the idea of disposable is becoming distasteful in our modern era..." Being literally surrounded by young people all day, I see that, especially in the more thoughtful ones. They still love their smart-phones, yes, but also love old record players, old well-made clothing, anything hand-crafted, and they HATE plastic. My 30-year old niece just grilled me via text for my grandmother's old-fashioned cornbread recipe, and I see young people taking up old crafts, and yes, even occasionally, wielding the straight razor. There is hope that people will hang on to some old ways in spite of (or maybe because of!) the corrosively dehumanizing impacts of technology.

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Mark-One thing that struck me in my travels around Europe and the UK was that virtually all of the really old buildings (Canterbury Cathedral, many old castles, etc. that are hundreds of years old) are either crumbling, or surrounded by scaffolding and workmen frantically trying to save them. I love that Europe is trying to preserve its cultural heritage, even as ultra-modern skyscrapers loom right beside them in many cases (as in London, for example). That many with unique archaic skills are making bank on this is also very cool

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The cost of the restoration to the Palace of Westminster is estimated to be around £4bn! :dropjaw:

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Originally Posted by RezDog

I have thought about this a bit since you posted it, so apparently it was truly thought provoking. It made me think of the Alfred Pendray story about him figuring out the wootz damascus steel. A craftsman and a true backyard tinkerer of the finest order. He is not alone, there are others around the world, in back yard workshops and barns, making handmade items and crucible steel. I’m my mind they are likely all figuring out old puzzles and creating their own artistry while imitating the past. The cottage industries have been getting stepped on by the large producers and pushed out of the market. I think that will become cyclical as large industry is relatively new in the history of man. Craftsman, tradesman, and hand made are all re-emerging. The idea of disposable is becoming distasteful in our modern era and the top quality products are returning to the shelf.
Thanks for the post, it did in fact get me thinking.
:-)

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This is just another aspect of this hobby. Indeed, there are many cool things about it and there is something for just about everyone. I think you are absolutely right about the circular trend! History has a way of repeating itself and this is no different.

I am not against technology and am using it to communicate now! However, there is definite limitations. Not many people can sit down at a fire and knock out a perfect blade the first time or even come close. With modern forges, tools, equipment, and the internet many can come much closer right out of the gates. Even then you have to put your time in to really perfect it. There is no substitute for experience.

I was amazed that a razor this old was so capable and it reminds me of ancient Japanese steel. There is much lore and mythology involved with that but also some excellent steel. I think Sheffield also enjoyed some excellent steel. Oz pointed to Swedish steel which was renowned and still is. I am proud to own a piece of this Sheffield steel from back then that can shave the socks off my neighbors cat! My Wade & Butcher FBU’s don’t seem to be far removed although they are much bigger and in comparison even a bit clunky.

Like Bob said, I like the traditional design in newer and custom razors. They did have practicality down pat for the most part.

Mike, it was your comments in other threads that got me thinking about all of this yesterday. We have discussed before that there is something special about this period of razors.

In the olden days artisans relied on their eyes much more than we do.The colour of the steel rather than the reading of a thermometer told them where they were at and what to do next. I am not sure whether there are similar books in English but if you read French and you are interested in olden-days craftsmanship you can read here how razors and other blades were made. Mr Perret mentions razors and how to create their particular qualities a few times.
https://books.google.de/books?id=yGl...page&q&f=false

Several points here. Much of what is known about metals and elements has been known for hundreds of years. Also in many cases iron ore just happened to come from the ground with the right mix of minerals producing some of these legendary implements by serendipity. Also things were more handmade and crafted but still those old fashioned methods can't hold a candle to modern precision methods.

A 1930 Packard might be built like a tank and have hand tufted seats and wood trim and white wall tires and 50 lbs of lacquer paint but would you really want to drive one every day and have to maintain it and get into a serious wreck in it?

As far as buildings go even the pyramids are crumbling. Nothing can hold up to mother nature and the forces of erosion. Just look at the surface of the moon. Without erosion that's what we would look like.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Also things were more handmade and crafted but still those old fashioned methods can't hold a candle to modern precision methods.

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Says the man who still uses a brush and soap to lather. :rofl2:

do you mean that my monument that I place will not last forever?:rofl2:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Also things were more handmade and crafted but still those old fashioned methods can't hold a candle to modern precision methods.

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Yes, there is a big caveat attached to modern precision methods. You have to have tight quality control along the whole manufacturing process or you can and do turn out volumes of subpar product in a vey short time span. I am thinking of the modern current production razors that somehow escape the factory not shave ready. There are pros and cons to everything.

Bob

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

My favorite razors are from the late 1800's through the late 30's. Hexe machines became common and steel had gained considerably by then.
Still, the hand-crafted element and pride of product was there. Geometry was near perfect. Thinner grinds were most common.
Easy to hone and maintain. The pinnacle of blades, IMO.

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Thank you for your opinion. Just to be clear my original post was not meant to pit this against that or to put down technology or other era razors. To each their own and YMMV. There are great razors from all periods and I have some great custom examples also. My original post was to highlight the skill that went into making that particular razor and the musing in my head at the time. I only referenced the technology and steel of today to show the great skill the maker(s) had and how proud I am of to own it.

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Originally Posted by Kees

In the olden days artisans relied on their eyes much more than we do.The colour of the steel rather than the reading of a thermometer told them where they were at and what to do next. I am not sure whether there are similar books in English but if you read French and you are interested in olden-days craftsmanship you can read here how razors and other blades were made. Mr Perret mentions razors and how to create their particular qualities a few times.
https://books.google.de/books?id=yGl...page&q&f=false

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Yes! Absolutely amazing what they were able to accomplish. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Steel

Thank you for your opinion. Just to be clear my original post was not meant to pit this against that or to put down technology or other era razors. To each their own and YMMV. There are great razors from all periods and I have some great custom examples also. My original post was to highlight the skill that went into making that particular razor and the musing in my head at the time. I only referenced the technology and steel of today to show the great skill the maker(s) had and how proud I am of to own it.

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Looks like I missed the point by 100 years or so. Post deleted. I have some oldies as well. They shave now as they shaved then.
Carry-on.

Like all of you I also have great razors from every time period. One of them is also one of my earliest acquisitions.

Someone in our community remembered that I had mentioned I were wishing for an old razor with ivory scales and he just had this one sent out for restoration by another member. He told me once it comes back I can have it and refused to take anymore money than what he had bought it for (virtually nothing).

It's such a great razor and only has what seems to be a name of a London retailer. I was looking at it this morning and I will close out 2019 with it on tomorrow's shave :)

The whole concept of craftsmen and artisans is a fascinating one.

My great grandfather was a German cabinet maker who came to the US in the 1880s and set up shop very near where he got off the boat in Baltimore. I am fortunate to have a cane seat chair he made, that is still sturdy enough to hold my fat butt without wobbling (or groaning), although the seat was re-caned in the 1950s. When I look at the joinery and precision of the carvings, it is hard to imagine them being done with no electric tools. My father inherited his love of tools and precise workmanship and built many things with a few great vintage hand tools. My brother, who is an electrician, does woodworking as his hooby and has built some beautiful pieces, but has a workshop full of precision woodworking machinery.

Some time back, someone on SRP asked what an "artisan" soap was. When I considered that question I realized that the word floods me with memories of the many lasting things I've seen, touched and used that were created by people who were truly artisans.

I think that 200 years ago, people understood a lot. They certainly did not have such modern devices as they are now. But I do not think that people were no less literate in the manufacture of various crafts. If we take an earlier period and say for the Egyptian pyramids or Indian temples, then we still need to grow those technologies. Not so simple. I think so.

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Originally Posted by Steel

I doubt the person who crafted this razor could have known that 200 years later it would be looked at, talked about and appreciated by people all over the world. I am sure it was one of many created. A tool. A mundane object and not a masterpiece except maybe to the smith at the time of finishing it. I am certain he could not have fathomed the appreciation people would have for his skill so far in the future.

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I have read through this thread a couple times and have a few thoughts.

The first one is that at it's time it was created I don't think that this was a mundane object. At the time there probably was relatively few who could do a great job and then relatively few who could afford it.

One thing with simpler tools is that if you make a mistake it is relatively small. With modern power tools if you make a minor misjudgment the piece is junk but then again it doesn't bother you as much because you can just grab another piece of that "cheap" steel and try again.

I am visualizing something I have not done but if you where going to hit one piece of rock with another to try to make it match perfectly with the next one and something distracted you and you missed by .5 cm with your blow you probably wouldn't notice it in the 250,000 blows that it took to do your job.

If I don't pay attention to the diamond saw to do the same thing my whole piece is easily off by .5 m.

Just thinking out loud again!

not sure these poor souls were the proud craftsmen we'd like them to be. being a sheffield grinder (or émouleur in thiers) in the 19th century was a terrible fate. early and painful death was certain.

grinders and polishers in thiers: link

grinders in sheffield: link

this might make you feel a bit sick: sheffield grinders' asthma

regards,
hans

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Originally Posted by brightred

not sure these poor souls were the proud craftsmen we'd like them to be. being a sheffield grinder (or émouleur in thiers) in the 19th century was a terrible fate. early and painful death was certain.

grinders and polishers in thiers: link

grinders in sheffield: link

this might make you feel a bit sick: sheffield grinders' asthma

regards,
hans

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Yes, we tend to romanticize the good old days and tend to forget that they were far from good for the majority of people. Now you have people complaining about workplace health and safety laws and environmental protection laws. People can be strange creatures.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yes, we tend to romanticize the good old days and tend to forget that they were far from good for the majority of people. Now you have people complaining about workplace health and safety laws and environmental protection laws. People can be strange creatures.

Bob

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Much of this depends on which end of the food chain you belong to.

A bit off topic as it's not about forging razors or such but this is fascinating/well at least to this old redneck country boy. I do hope all will enjoy it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE7QA1chUzw&t=1773s

Enjoy what Roy?

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Originally Posted by Johntoad57

Enjoy what Roy?

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Does the video not open for you? :thinking:

Like going to Williamsburg, Roy.
Everything done by hand, no power tools.
Dad was amazed at how thin they could cut pieces of veneer, by hand. Talk about " old school"and having pride in your work


Just think, a CNC machine and a computer, took his job.

One big solar flare/ EMP, and were back to those days.

You have to love the living history places. If you are ever up our way be sure and visit Old Fort William to get a glimpse of what life was like during the fur trade era.

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCP1TIrpk4A