Tamahagane Razors?

I was just wondering. Several people are now making some pretty exotic custom razors, including forging the blades themselves. For example Maestro Livi, Robert Williams, Tim Zowada, Joe Chandler etc.

Maestro Livi buys steel in from Sushui Takeda (sp?) sometimes, to make his Takeda razors. But I was wondering if any of the custom makers have ever bought in some Tamahagane steel from Japan, and made a western style straight razor out of it?

If not, has anyone heard talk of this being possible/feasible?

I assume it'd be pretty expensive, very likely more so than Takeda steel or Wootz type damascus. I believe swords made from Tamahagane are among the best in the world, would the properties of the steel make a razor that's similarly great?

:hmmm:

Cheers,

Iwan

Here is one link that discusses tamahagane steel. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/steel.html .

This steel is 50 times more expensive than modern made steels because of the enormous amount of manual work involved in smelting it from the black sands of Japan.

Tamahagane steel can be very good or poor in quality. There are a few makers in the US trying to keep the tradition of tamahagane steel alive and experimenting with traditional smelting processes. I think Mike Blue might be one of them, but I can't recall for sure.

I thought that I remember Joel saying that he had a Japanese style razor made out of Tamahagane steel. From what I remember, he said it was one of his top razors, but not the best. I don't really know much about steel properties; however, I was told that the modern high quality steels like the ATS are "better" than traditional Tamahagane :shrug: . Of course there would be a definate "cool factor" of owning a razor made out of the same material as the famous Samuri Swords.

There was a member here who was talking about manufacturing his own Tamahagane steel, though his name escapes me right now. I'll see if I can locate the thread.

PapaBull is right. Mike Blue is the gent's name.

See here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...ght=tamahagane

Is it possible to just buy "a piece of tamahagane steel" anywhere? I suppose as long as you could get a piece the right sort of dimensions, then any of the custom razor makers should (in theory) be able to forge a western style razor out of it, no?

First, tamahagane that's been made in Japan is supposed to stay in Japan. I have about a one ounce piece of the really good jewel steel (that's the translation from Japanese anyway) that I keep as a reference library. It was given me by the murage of the Shimane smelter. I do not believe that anyone has legally obtained enough of the correct material to make anything of blade size unless they are working old Japanese swords into stuff like that. Anyone can obtain smallish samples of the material, but a good portion of the stuff available to even serious tourists is low grade. Believe me, not even the smallest portion of the really good stuff would be ignored by a swordsmith whose reputation depends on the quality of the material in his blades.

Mr. Kihara is obligated to sell the material he makes to Japanese swordsmiths first, and perhaps really old toolmakers of high enough rank. I believe that would include some of the well known razorsmiths as well. But, I know nothing of the types of steel that are used by the razor makers. I'll start asking around though. It would not surprise me to find that some of them have access to this material.

Second, I have been making this kind of steel at my shop for the last four years. It takes me about three days to build the furnace and a full day to run it. Firebrick is expensive, clay isn't, charcoal is, helpers are. After that the bloom steel has to be forged and welded into a bar before it can be turned into a blade. That material has to be sorted to identify the good stuff. It's very expensive in terms of time, materials and labor.

Third, I'm happy to say that I'm getting more satisfied with the material I've learned to make. Where some may be eager to run their material out to sell it because it's rare and looks like a bloom, I've been much more cautious on two fronts. I'd like to be sure that metallurgically this is a satisfactory approach to the real deal and I have endeavored to give the Japanese no reason to regard me as other than someone who respects the craft.

As to the steel itself, well, it's not that special compared to some of the serious metallurgical production going on these days. It really is nothing more than iron and carbon with the carbon content running about 1.4-1.6%. By the time a Japanese swordsmith gets done making a blade the usual carbon content is down around 0.6-0.7% which would be an average steel here. It will hold a good edge, and with the typical hardening treatment will make very good looking hardening lines (hamon). But that's why it's made the way it is, to be very low in hardenability to best produce those hardening features.

All other aspects of the razor still need to be accounted for, edge shape, honing etc. I'd want to know what the Japanese razor makers were doing to the carbon content too. Do they reduce it like the swordsmiths? That has to be taken into acccount. If I was going to build a razor company today, I'd look to the crucible particle metallurgy steels for a production blade.

If you want exotic, I can do that. I'd be very interested in seeing how it shaves too. It'll be expensive. Very much along the lines of: if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. I'd like these babies to start out being great razors first and foremost, very collectible second and remain uncommon. Am I being fussy, sure. I don't want my stuff being flipped around every where unless I can stand behind it.

Just some thoughts.

i don't think you can get a better answer than that:tu

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Originally Posted by Steelforge

Is it possible to just buy "a piece of tamahagane steel" anywhere? I suppose as long as you could get a piece the right sort of dimensions, then any of the custom razor makers should (in theory) be able to forge a western style razor out of it, no?

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No, not really. The Japanese restrict the "real stuff" for sale only to the correctly registered and licenced folks who can have it in Japan. Bits and bobs, both good (few, very few) and bad (all the rest), that drop off the supply chain aren't enough to get close to blade size.

If it could be had, yes, I'd love to forge something from it. Getting through customs with my own body weight of permits and paperwork in addition to a small portion of good steel, would be very interesting. Not coming home, but leaving Japan mind you.

There are a few others out there who know how to make this stuff. "Some dudes" in Australia, some in Florida, one in Georgia and a couple others who make claims of doing so, but I've never seen their materials. But it comes down to the fact that it's not easy to make.

I won't even quibble about "making it correctly" or that I didn't use real iron sand from Japan or that I don't have Japanese DNA or all the other ridiculous criticisms made to keep me from being confident about whether the steel is good enough.

I will say this. When I'm happy with what I'm making, I'll start letting some out of the shop. I've got some other irons in the fire right now, but it won't be far off.

Wow, thanks for the detailed replies Mike, that's pretty much answered all of the questions I had - including some that hadn't previously occurred to me! :bow

I think I'll drop this idea now for myself. With no predicatble income I'm not in a position to pay vast amounts for an experimental razor at this time. For me the quality of the shave is #1, and I'd be a bit gutted to comission a blade of extreme rarity/cost only to risk finding out it doesn't shave as well as a mass produced modern steel.

It's a really interesting subject though. Having watched the Nat Geo documentary on Katana forging I think it's pretty cool that you're having a go at making your own Tamahagane steel. I'd love to have the time and facilities to be able to try things like that myself, if I lived in the USA I'd offer to come and lend a hand. :)

Hey, I'd love to have you over here. We're doing another burn Oct 5-6. One of this forum's denizens will show up hopefully and you'll get an objective report. It'll be objective until the slag run then everybody's mind goes on hold. Something about hot molten stuff to get the attention. Last year even the camera dude forgot what he was doing and he was looking through the lens.

There are some folks on your side of the pond who are going in the same direction. I was over in Kent last May doing a demonstration smelt. Do you have their contact info? If you connect to them, you'll be in good company for learning. You might even get to help make some and have your own chunk before I got to it.

Likely me or a couple of us will be testing such razors before long. I'll post out information as it comes up.

Keep us posted on when you're doing the burns because I'd definitely like to show up for one and lend a hand. Can't make it for 5-6/10 though.

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Keep us posted on when you're doing the burns because I'd definitely like to show up for one and lend a hand. Can't make it for 5-6/10 though.

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Anyone who has an interest, I'll keep everyone's contact info and notify by email, or will post on this forum or a couple knife forums I frequent. I do some knife classes at my shop too.

The next one is a puukko class in March, not completely confirmed yet but likey mid march. Those blades are hollow ground, just like a razor, so it'd be good practice for anyone wanting to enter into the disease of steel.

I strongly suspect, but cannot yet confirm dates, that at least one good steel burn with some serious blade workers in attendance will occur in Nova Scotia within about a year.

If it's in the summer, chances are I'll just ride on down there. Haven't seen the east coast yet (which is a small bonus compared to the main event) :nj

I actually have 2 razors in Tamahagane. One is a vintage the other is an Iwasaki razor in Tamahagane. It looks nearly identical to standard steel Iwasaki, however the blade (under magnification) is a hell of a lot different. It is FULL of the tiniest microserrations, and the edge lasts damn near indefinate.... sounds like a dream come true no? Well... no, as the "micro-serrations" and the steel being harder than chinese calculus equate to a bit of a "rough" shave. It shaves close, and comfortable, but I wouldn't say it's any better than the bearing steel version of the Iwasaki. If you research it, and talk to Iwasaki vendors, they'll confirm the Tamahagane Iwasaki's, but they'll tell you they are a collectors item, not a razor to use.

Note: the Tamahagane Iwasaki's are only made as "show pieces" for knife/blade shows in Japan, and are considered "collectors items" not really daily use items, so they are both expensive, and hard to come by. If someone is really interested and wants one, I might be able to source one for you, but it'd be at least a year before you saw it, and it'd be a fortune. There's a fella in Idaho (I believe) that does "sharpening tours" and instructs chefs how to hone blades etc, and he has a TON of really "high-up" blade contacts in Japan.

Interesting thread. Particularly since after reading it last night I thought "Hey, I haven't shaved with my Japanese straight in a while...." Then this morning, I took a closer look at it.

On the tang is stamped "Kiku Oban, Tokyo" along with the number 7, a crest that looks like a heart with a crown and cross atop it and "registered trademark." On the tail it's stamped "TAMAHAGANE." Pics attached.

This was, if memory serves, my third straight purchase. I bought it mainly because I liked the shape of the blade, but it's the first (maybe the last) that I managed to hone to an edge that made me think "whoa." Shaves quite nicely but the steel feels very hard. I can't say whether or not this is the fine steel being discussed, but from the way Mike talks about the Japanese reverence for Tamahagane steel, I don't see them being able to stamp it as such if it weren't. Anyway, thought you all might like to see it. If anyone knows more on this, please pass on the info!

Gents,

A Nova special called "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" will air tomorrow night (Tues. 10.9.07) on PBS. The promo looked like it would investigate design and metallurgy. Thought it might be of interest to some.

Nova has been a high quality production in the past. Hopefully this won't be a disappointment.

Regards

Good Job. The notice on the PBS special deserves a 'kudos' an excellent peice. It put some life into this discussion thread.

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Originally Posted by oldschool

... A Nova special called "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" will air tomorrow night...

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I watched the show. The fire parts were very good. The materials science stuff was directed at sixth graders but didn't have any egregious errors. The cheesy acting wasn't needed. The craftsmen were true artists. I'll be watching bits of that show until the hard drive dies.

I"m glad it had some interesting content. There's so much 'lost secrets' BS going around I wasn't sure.

I thought the secret (mild steel core covered by a tempered high carbon outer casing) was fascinating. The mild steel keeps the blade from breaking every time you chop somebody's head off and the high carbon keeps a keen edge so you don't have to hone after every one. For 1100 BCE, that would have been incredibly high tech.

If I ever make it to Japan, I'll certainly seek out a 'high museum' to get a look at a 'five body' blade. The Japanese haven't done any of that type of research since the 1930's and 40's.<insert smiley>

Regards

For those of us unable to watch the show: what's a 'high museum' and a 'five body blade'

Bruno

try this link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/

If I were going to Tokyo, the National Sword Museum is the one to see.

In the old days, blades were tested on bodies. Testing information sometimes comes incised on the tang of the blade. The higher the number the higher the quality of cutting tool.

I really hope that nobody here wants tamahagane razors evaluated in the same manner. ;)

I for one, do - you test the razor on a body using the tool for its intended purpose (i.e., not to cut off the head, but to shave the face) - the higher the number, the higher the quality of the cutting tool.

Oh, wait. Shigeyoshi Iwasaki already uses this method - http://www.munemasa.co.jp/english/1707-301.htm - 1032 people without needing a hone.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

In the old days, blades were tested on bodies. Testing information sometimes comes incised on the tang of the blade. The higher the number the higher the quality of cutting tool.

I really hope that nobody here wants tamahagane razors evaluated in the same manner. ;)

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And let me hurriedly add, before someone chastises me that I don't understand that the number of shaves has nothing to do with the quality of those shaves - I do, and that was meant to be humorous.