New Razors vs. Old

Gents --

I'm relatively new to straights, have been using them for a couple of months, and enjoying the whole mess mightily. What was once drudgery is now a pastime I look forward to.

To this end, I've acquired several razors (I know, I know: incipient RAD). 'Til now, they've all been new DOVOs (I have a new TI being honed by Lynn). Until now: I just got an old (shave-ready) Double Duck Goldenedge from one of the members, and used it this morning for the first time.

Revelation! This was far and away the best shave I've had since I started in with straights. It was almost like not shaving at all. The blade passed over the face with scarcely a sensation of touching it. The former problem spots, no longer problems.

So this prompts my question (and apologies for my roundabout way of getting there): in your experience, is there an inherent superiority of the older makes of razors?

There are, to be sure, other possible factors: maybe the soap I used for the first time today was of a superior sort, maybe my proficiency took a quantum leap today. In any case, any of you who prefer your newer razors are welcome to sell me your old Double Ducks!

Thanks,

Roger
Sierra Madre, California

Being a noob, and knowing where my greatest weakness is, my first question is:

Who honed the new razors you've been shaving with? And did the Dubl Duck come "shave ready" from the member here from whom it was purchased?

I have had the same experience, after having bought something like 15 razors ...half of them new and professionally honed...and the other half "vintage razors" and got them professionally honed as well i have come to one conclusion..
The old razors give me a more comfortable , close shave....the metal just feels sharper and smoother.....
I like the look and feel of a new razor though...old razors just look...sad...and with loose pins and not so nice scales are kind of harder to hone and strop...but the shave is better...without any doubt.

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Originally Posted by RAP-BIG-ICP1

Being a noob, and knowing where my greatest weakness is, my first question is:

Who honed the new razors you've been shaving with? And did the Dubl Duck come "shave ready" from the member here from whom it was purchased?

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All the new razors I have are "Lynn-honed." The Dubl Duck (I note the "correct incorrect" spelling!) was honed by the member I bought it from, Amyn.

Consensus has it, and I can in my inexperience attest, that Lynn's honing is tops. The feel of the older razor is different. Your explanation here:




Roger

All I can say is:
:hmmm::thinking::confused::hmmm::shrug:


But, that's fine by me (at least for now). I plan on getting my next couple from the folks selling on here. I'll save the "new" new for my request of gifts!! Christmas, B-Day, etc... :nj

It kind of makes sense - sort of. I mean, I'm guessing the prep of the steel is similar, but a new blade is "fresh", where an older blade is "well worn". Kind of like a brand new baseball glove vs. one you've had for 8 or 10 years. The new one is shiny, and pretty, and still smells of new leather, but the old one is your baby... the one you can catch even the most impossible balls with. The one that's already molded to your hand.

While the older blade isn't necessarily "molded" to your face, it has been put to the test.

Make sense? feasible? Anything scientific to support it one way or the other?

I have a WWII era German razor and it's the best shaver I've had yet. I've used newer razors and, while nice, my german and I get along much better. I haven't used a brand new razor (unless you count a brand new 70's Wapi), but I doubt it gets any better. Properly honed and stropped, mine goes straight through any hair smoothly, almost like I'm running the spine over my face rather than the edge. BBS with more ease than a cartridge? Hell yeah:cool:

I don't think cold, hard steel gets "broken in" the way a leather baseball glove does. I think the quality of the shave would depend primarily on three factors: blade grind, honing quality and steel properties. Both grind and steel properties are quite different in many older razors, but I would doubt that "breaking in" has much to do with the equation, as a freshly honed edge is always new steel that has never touched a face. Age, on the other hand, might affect the quality of the steel to some degree.

yeah, I didn't think there was anything scientific to it... It just sounded good.:roflmao:roflmao

I start this post with "In My Honest Opinion" because there is no proof for the statements I will make now....
However I think one word sums it up the best, COMPETITION, there was as much if not more competition for the vintage $$$ on straight razors as there is now for that 5th blade and vibrating handle... I think that the scales of yesteryear shame the offerings now days (Custom makers excluded)... You would think with all of our techno crap we could make a blade that would shame the old makers now I will say that the new blades are sharp, wicked sharp in fact but they just don't feel the same, they are just sharp, they don't have the smoothness factor...
Now as some of you know I am a gunsmith, a rifle-smith to be more exact, and maybe razors are like rifles, they have to age (be used) a bit before they get that silky smoothness that we love so much!!!!!:cool:

I would imagine it be, because in the old days the smiths took their time and had to rely on doing things manually, thus producing high quality superior products.

Nowadays to make a knife or a razor, they get a chunk of steel, press it, then use like a cookie cutter for steel to get the knife or razor shape, grind, heat treat, polish and machine sharpen and voila.
If I remember correctly there are as little as 29 steps (maybe a few more) to produce the Victorinox (sp?) knives I am certain that in the older days it took much, much longer. Oh and I understand that a few people do still do it the old school way, there are some that don't.



DISCLAIMER: The thoughts and views expressed herein are that of myself, and may not be shared by others.

Just because something seems more comfortable with initial use and seems to shave better doesn't make it better. I would challenge anyone here that if you take two razors, lets say an old genco from around 1900 and say a brand spanking new TI Silver Steel and spend the time to hone them properly if you were blindfolded and someone shaved you, you would not notice any difference in the shaves. For most of us there are many variables in shaving. Each day is different and most of our razors are honed to a slightly different degree of sharpness just to mention two things.

But whether the actual razors of yesterday were better steel thats a different issue. I collect watches and most modern mechanical watches are more accurate than those made 80 years ago but thats because modern ones are all CAD designed and parts are machined with high tech equipment while the older ones were designed the old way by a guy on a drafting table and older machining methods so the tolerances now are much tighter. However modern watches some think use components made from softer metals which have a very thin case hardening on them while over time will wear and that spells trouble. The older watches used a better quality and harder metal to begin with. Many doubt modern watches will last more than 30-40 years with constant wear while older models seem to go on forever.

Age might "season" the steel in a blade but what about this:
-were the blade edge angles identical in design years ago vs. today? (think I read that most are 11 degrees...)
-A seasoned razor has been honed a lot, maybe this appreciably changed the angle on the edge by grinding down the spine? That ought to really affect the "feel" of the blade I would think, as well as how long it holds an edge.

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Originally Posted by johnny_angel

Age might "season" the steel in a blade but what about this:

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Or this to expand on spendur's point:

In the "olden days" things were generally overdesigned. They couldn't just pipe their CAD file into some failure analysis algorithm and see what happened the next day. I don't know about watches but in the auto industry they generally design to within a hairsbreadth of the specification because they CAN. And that's especially true if it affects material or manufacturing cost.

Design differences, even subtle ones, may be difference here. That's my guess.

But I never shaved with a duck so this is all just a crazy theory...

This all being said I think it is a simple fact to note here that my 7/8 w&b is my best and nicest shaver I have used so far. I haven't tried alot. wapi's dovo's a TI sheffield,. I think a duck may be waddling my way soon. I don't know if its the steal or the smile in the blade but it just seems easier to shave with then any of the lesser grinds I have tried using. I am going to test it against a puma here very soon after it is honed and see what I think of that.

I think it also comes down to a different attitude toward the razor.

I'm a carbon steel (old steel) kind of person, so I look at my knives and razors with that kind of "prejudice?". I see a carbon blade and think of all the things it's done in it's history (even the new ones) as opposed to stainless (sneeze) that shows no charm or character, but thats me...

That said my best shavers seem to be the 100 year olds and lesser as the age comes more to present. Now is that a prejudice or a fact of manufacture? (or is it the beer talking???)

Anyway I'm in the older is better court.

Most of the cheap and low-end razors from yesteryear are long gone - what we've got left are the good ones. Also your new-razor experience is limited to Dovo, and from what I hear most modern Dovos are basically the same razor with different cosmetics. Do your new Dovos include a Prima Klang or Bergischer Lowe? If not you might want to pick up a Lynn-honed Bergischer Lowe and see how it compares.

I've also read (don't know if its true) that Dovo is having trouble finding skilled labor to make their razors. Could it be that more people knew how to make quality razors in the past? With a bigger pool, the products would generally tend to be better, no?

Jordan

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Originally Posted by jnich67

I've also read (don't know if its true) that Dovo is having trouble finding skilled labor to make their razors. Could it be that more people knew how to make quality razors in the past? With a bigger pool, the products would generally tend to be better, no?

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Better finished, finer ground, etc yes. However that doesn't affect how the razor shaves - that's the steel and heat treating process. But none of these outfits ever made their own steel, and proper heat treating isn't rocket science and you only need one guy that knows how to do it anyway. If modern Dovos don't shave as well as the old ones, it's because they are cheaping out on the steel, or cheaping out on the heat treating.

Look at TI - they look like they're made by a high school shop class, but they shave incredibly well because they use good steel and have a great heat treating recipe. And if the new Silverwing manufacturing process and steel succeeds in removing the worst aspects of the old TI's QC problems while ramping up the steel quality, then you'll have something that could blow away the best of the vintage razors.

It's not as though the vintage razors were all paragons of quality after all. I've got a Wostenholm "Celebrated" that is ground with one side of the blade nearly parallel to the scales. Shaves great though, which is probably why it wasn't thrown away a century ago.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Also your new-razor experience is limited to Dovo, and from what I hear most modern Dovos are basically the same razor with different cosmetics. Do your new Dovos include a Prima Klang or Bergischer Lowe? If not you might want to pick up a Lynn-honed Bergischer Lowe and see how it compares.

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Is this your recommendation for the best of the ("lower" end) modern razors (which as far as I can tell is limited to Dovo & TI)? After all, if I can explain to my wife that this is in the name of research...:w

Roger

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Originally Posted by Sweeney T

Is this your recommendation for the best of the ("lower" end) modern razors (which as far as I can tell is limited to Dovo & TI)? After all, if I can explain to my wife that this is in the name of research...:w

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I wouldn't say that - I haven't tried them all after all. The TI silversteel razors are great as well, and they aren't too expensive. But there are only a few dovos that are "not like the others", and those are the BL, PK, and the damascus razors. Both the BL (which I own and love) and the PK (which I don't but has a great rep) are reasonably priced, and the BL is a beautiful razor to boot. The TI's have had some serious manufacturing problems lately - when I got my Wheat Berry earlier this year I had to return the first one because it was completely unserviceable and had no excuse leaving the factory, and the second one wasn't great but could be made to work. Dovos aren't perfect but they're much better than TI. Hopefully the new equipment will eliminate these manufacturing problems with the new silverwings.

I believe that the old razors difference could be due to the way the material was treated. My brother recently had a conversation with Ron Middleton. He and his brother are the last working members of a Sheffield Meister dynasty. You'll recognise their work if you have seen the film The League of Gentlemen with Sean Connery. They made all the bowie knives etc and film props. He told my brother that they couldn't get the steel as hard as they used to because they used to quench in whale oil, which is no longer available; hence their modern made bowies are a lot softer. Maybe this is the same for the razors as well. Paul

I don't buy this whale oil or molten lead bit about quenching. Cryo-hardening in Liquid Nitrogen is all the rage now in custom knife work. they are producing steels that test out to as high 65 Rc. Somehow I don't think these old vintage methodologies are producing steel that hard. I'm no metalurgist, but I think grind and steel qualities will have a lot more to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Sharp&Shiny

I believe that the old razors difference could be due to the way the material was treated. My brother recently had a conversation with Ron Middleton. He and his brother are the last working members of a Sheffield Meister dynasty. You'll recognise their work if you have seen the film The League of Gentlemen with Sean Connery. They made all the bowie knives etc and film props. He told my brother that they couldn't get the steel as hard as they used to because they used to quench in whale oil, which is no longer available; hence their modern made bowies are a lot softer. Maybe this is the same for the razors as well. Paul

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BertMor

I don't buy this whale oil or molten lead bit about quenching. Cryo-hardening in Liquid Nitrogen is all the rage now in custom knife work. they are producing steels that test out to as high 65 Rc. Somehow I don't think these old vintage methodologies are producing steel that hard. I'm no metalurgist, but I think grind and steel qualities will have a lot more to do with it.

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There are a few guys in the custom knife making arena that test blade steels of all kinds, and are finding that the blade alloy may have very little to do with sharpness and edge retention. As tests are done with as many different new "super steels" as possible with as few variables as possible they are finding that it is a combination of blade angle with the correct hardness for the steel used (I'm talking about the steel in each individual blade, as variation from batch to batch of even simple steel alloys is proving to be inconsistent).

Some alloys chip (microscopically) if they are heat treated too hard, while other are still malleable at the same hardness, but don't hold an edge any better.

That being said, daily shaving is a test of whether all of the factors are working well together, and old razors have been tested through and through, while new ones have not.

just my two cents, for what it's worth.

my 'newest' blade is a solingen blade from the 70's? my father in law gave it to me. very pretty. would be up there if i displayed them. don't like the shave with it. my usual shaves come from the older blades. vintage W&B, Genco, Duck #1.

my justification is that if i am going to spend on the low end $100, i would rather have 2-10 str8s instead of just 1. but that is just my thought on things. i am a cheapo. but i know it.

it is all subjective. i am sure a new dovo or TI shave terrific, but i don't care. i would hate to spend the money to buy them.

vgod

I haven't bought a new razor yet, as my vintage DD, C-Mon, and Genco seem to be plenty good enough for me.

With that said, I can see a Dovo Tortoise Special and Bergischer Lowe in my near future... I look forward to comparing them.