Super Sharp Ceramic Razors?

A company called Kyocera has popularized the use of "advanced ceramics" for cutting tools, like kitchen knives etc. do some research if you want a bit more technical info, but the basic premise is the there are a few types of newly discovered ceramics that stay sharper much longer than even the best steel (high carbon and stainless). Thus outperforming nearly all other knives on the market. In fact they rank "2nd to diamonds in hardness" as quoted from the Kyocera website.

The drawback is that they are brittle , and are not suitable for all cutting tasks like cutting through bone, prying meat off of bones, etc. which are fairly uses common for kitchen cutlery, thus making them somewhat undesirable.

My question is to you razor-meisters that have experienced the ultimates in razordom: would there be a market for a razor made of this extremely hard, fine, sharp ceramic? and at what price?

I've got a few sources for the material to try and make some prototypes, and will report back if there's any interest.

Thanks for your help guys!

If I drop any of my straights I have a fighting chance that they will survive, but with ceramic I would be nervous just setting the razor down let alone dropping it! The idea is neat but I don't think it has a place here.
Maybe other members feel differently!?

The stay sharper much longer statement does it for me, how long is that :shrug: and as JMS stated above, in my klutz hands, it will get broke :rant:
I don't think I would buy one unless they were at "DISPOSABLE" prices!!!!!

It's hard to imagine they could be smooth shavers, but I'd certainly be interested if someone produced one.

I don't think it would work. Ceramic is sharp, yet very brittle so it's unforgiving of mistakes. If you can prototype it, I'd love to hear the results. Sign me up as a tester!

ceramic is sharp but SS or carbon are sharper i doubt you will get a top shave from ceramic
only thing that hones it is diamond and you have to hone a long time it's that hard
if you drop it it breaks like glass and even if you only chip it it still gonna take very long to sharpen it unless you do it with power tools
kyocera says that you have send your kitchen knife back to have it sharpen

This has been brought up before. Its the delicate nature of the edge, imagine a ceramic edge so thin it wouldn't take much to chip it and then what do you do? You can't hone it you have to send it back. Also I think there was an issue with the comfort factor of a ceramic blade.

Well I'll try play the devil's advocate a bit :)

The issue of dropping the razor isn't really worse than for kitchen knives, and I believe they are quite popular, if a lot more expensive than regular kitchen knives. I'd certainly like a couple for the kitchen :-) (ok, so the dedrease in utility of a dropped razor is probably bigger than for a dropped kitchen knife). However, as far as I'm concerned it's already with steel razors potentially quite bad if you drop it, so depending on how bad one considers that it is perhaps not incrementally much worse to drop a ceramic razor.

As for the honing, it seems that many of us already use diamond based honing tools, so in principle that would enable honing of any material that isn't as hard as diamond ? I grant that the hardness of a ceramic material must require many strokes to remove the same volume of material off the edge than is the case for softer material such as carbon steel. However because of that same hardness the wear is likely to be correspondingly smaller. But for extremely brittle materials, chipping may be a problem, I couldn't say.

If indeed for whatever reason it would not be possible to hone the thing oneself, it would have to be extremely durable - the quality of the shave decreases fast with decreasing sharpness, much more so than does the utility of kitchen knives. In addition I think the one of the attractions of a straight razor is the element of preparing the shaving edge oneself, customizing it until it is just right.

Too easy to break. Too hard to sharpen. I'd pass until the ceramic technology gets a whole lot better.

Yeah, I have had all of these concerns in the back of my mind, trying to reserve judgment until a prototype is up and running.

it just seems to me that one may be able to play with the edge geometry a little to make up for the brittleness of the ceramic; for example, make the cutting edge angle a little more obtuse than a standard razor, just enough to decrease the chance of flagrant chipping.

The appeal to me (and possibly many others) is that there would be minimal upkeep needed, no stropping, no rusting, and much longer between honings... if it can be made to work.

And it would seem to me that no stropping and less cleaning means less handling in general which means a decreased chance of dropping it.

though I may be wrong, I could see only needing a good flat piece of hardwood with diamond honing compound to keep it in shape, barring any large chips that would require regrinding

But I can see how this might all be a load of crap, but you never know till you try, right?:rolleyes:

Only one way to know for sure.....

Try it!

I say go for it...make one and let us know!

I'm interested :thinking:


C utz

I saw it on TV (so it MUST be True).

The knives they are making are used mainly by sushi chefs. They showed the whole process, from extracting the mineral out of the ground, to making up the blanks and firing them, and then sending them out to have them sharpened.

I thought the sharpening would be some kind of CNC grinding machine.

No.

They send them to a little guy who hand sharpens them. A "master honer."
Well, I did see that he has some kind of electric grinder in his little 6 X 8 shop, and it looks like one smiling apprentice. Very primitive. All done right there in Japan. They probably have more than one master on the hook to do this.

No automatic machinery, just grinding equipment and hones.

Does this mean we could hone our own razors? I have no idea.

There are lots of ceramic knives on the market. Maybe someone here could snag one and see if he can get it to shave.

Here is one of my ceramic knives. Sharp as H*&^, but I would not shave with it. Tried it on the back of my hand and almost had to have stitches. It is amazing how quick they cut. I was being careful but the angle is different and it sliced right through the skin with no problem.
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My other knife, a 5 inch pearing,got a small chip in the blade and I tried a diamond hone. It would of taken weeks to get it honed out. I took it to a friend that has a wet diamond lapping wheel. After setting it up in a jig to keep the angle right it took about a half hour of work to get it honed out. Just like new, cuts great.
I don't think that I would want to put that kind of time and effort into a razor.
Just my two cents worth.

I don't think ceramic would take the kind of edge you'd need to have a comfortably shaving razor. You might get it sharp enough to cut hair, but no farther, and forget about polishing the edge. I can get a Zeepk sharp enough to cut hair. I'd be interested in the results from a prototype, but theoretically, I'd say it's very unlikely to work.

Yeah I've got some materials on the way, since there are a few different types of these new ceramics. maybe one will work better than the common material used in the commercial blades (since it's not uncommon for mass production to make cut backs on material quality).

I really have no idea how this will go, because theoretically with enough time and fine honing compounds, one ought to be able to put any kind of edge on any material, it's just a matter of whether that edge holds up or chips off etc.

I'm just one of those people who has to try and fail before an idea quits bugging me. So we'll see how it goes.

anyhow, it's great to have input from you guys! since this is my first venture into ceramics, anyone with different brands of ceramic cutlery who can give an opinion on their experience would be much appreciated.

I think it is hard to say whether it would work or not without trying first. Best thing is to get a few prototypes and send them to senior SRP members to try. I would be willing to try one and report back on SRP.

Although ceramic is harder than steel it will get blunt eventually with use. So I guess we would want to be able to hone and strop them ourselves unless they come at a disposable price. In that case you better sell blades that fit into a Shavette or Feather like thing.

Just my 0.02 USD.

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Originally Posted by toolarts

I saw it on TV (so it MUST be True).

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Haha, I saw a special on the history channel about sharpens and blades and they talked about ceramic blades. Ceramic blades supposedly can be sharpened much sharper then steel, and are used in industrial applications where sharpness is demanded and low risk of impact, eg slitting applications. And of course because it is ceramic the edge will hold longer because the material is harder.

I read somewhere that you can have an edge that is "too sharp" for a razor. Instead of cutting hairs and riding on the surface of the skin it will slice into the skin. I think that oldblades can testify to that :(

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Originally Posted by jmac

Haha, I saw a special on the history channel about sharpens and blades and they talked about ceramic blades. Ceramic blades supposedly can be sharpened much sharper then steel, and are used in industrial applications where sharpness is demanded and low risk of impact, eg slitting applications. And of course because it is ceramic the edge will hold longer because the material is harder.

I read somewhere that you can have an edge that is "too sharp" for a razor. Instead of cutting hairs and riding on the surface of the skin it will slice into the skin. I think that oldblades can testify to that :(

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The fact that you can make ceramic blades too sharp does not mean you have to make them too sharp when selling them as razors.

I do have a few razors that are almost too sharp to shave with. You just have to take that into account when honing.

For a little excitement you could try a fresh blade knapped from obsidean.
Very delicate edge and so sharp its scary. Have tried shaving with them. Tricky to get a way to hold it at a consistent angle but sure mows down stubble. You can throw the blade away (stone age disposable LOL) or convert to another tool once done. I have never done a complete shave with one though. I usually chicken out after a few strokes as it has sharpness that just oozes hurt you vibes.

is there any update on this??

I have heard of surgeons having custom obsidean blades made for them, and I've been thinking reading the whole way down this thread about an obsidean razor. Sounds way to dangerous.

http://www.finescience.com/commerce/...n-scalpels.htm

http://cordis.europa.eu/data/PROJ_BR...LeqEN_PROJ.htm

Interesting Robert,

I doubt the edge of these scalpels is a thin as a current straight and that any current ceramic would not stand up to being machined that thin. BUT if the edge is sharp enough, perhaps it wouldn't have to be?? Perhaps an ultra sharp 40 degree angle in ceramic would shave as well as a 12 degree angle in steel??Dunno, just conjecture.

Thanks for the articles! Something to think about, anyway.

Ken