Finally! The truth about "Silver Steel"

Found this little passage in a book I'm reading. (The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee. Chapter 3, page 20...never stop learning!) Since the topic of Silver Steel comes up quite a bit in reference to razors and their advertising verbiage, I thought this would be germane to the forums.

Silver Steel:
"This mark is most commonly found on old handsaws. One of the most irritating problems with early saws was the difficulty of keeping the steel bright, clean, and relatively frictionless in a kerf. Plain carbon steels rust quickly, as anyone who has left a carbon steel tool outside during a shower knows. The other problem was dealing with the constant tradeoff between hardness and toughness. If the blade was hardened to the point that the teeth stayed sharp for an extended time, the steel was usually too brittle, causing the blade to crack or break under stress. When it was discovered that adding a percentage of chromium to high carbon steel not only increased the hardness and toughness but also gave the steel a bright silvery finish that improved rust resistance, the alloy was quickly dubbed "Silver Steel" by some enterprising vendor. Needless to say, there was no silver in the alloy"

And know you know...

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Found this little passage in a book I'm reading. (The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee. Chapter 3, page 20...never stop learning!) Since the topic of Silver Steel comes up quite a bit in reference to razors and their advertising verbiage, I thought this would be germane to the forums.

Silver Steel:
"This mark is most commonly found on old handsaws. One of the most irritating problems with early saws was the difficulty of keeping the steel bright, clean, and relatively frictionless in a kerf. Plain carbon steels rust quickly, as anyone who has left a carbon steel tool outside during a shower knows. The other problem was dealing with the constant tradeoff between hardness and toughness. If the blade was hardened to the point that the teeth stayed sharp for an extended time, the steel was usually too brittle, causing the blade to crack or break under stress. When it was discovered that adding a percentage of chromium to high carbon steel not only increased the hardness and toughness but also gave the steel a bright silvery finish that improved rust resisitance, the alloy was quickly dubbed "Silver Steel" by some enterprising vendor. Needless to say, there was no silver in the alloy"

And know you know...

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...the rest of the story!

Thank you Paul Harvey!

That's weird

I do have chromized razors that keep their bright, and have tough and hard edges... So this part is not surprising.

However, I thought the TI razors which use Silver Steel do stain if you just look at them the wrong way :rant: maybe TI uses a special Silver Steel?

Cheers
Ivo

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Originally Posted by izlat

However, I thought the TI razors which use Silver Steel do stain if you just look at them the wrong way :rant:

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Boy, you're not kidding, Ivo!

+1 on that.

Chris

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Originally Posted by izlat

That's weird

I do have chromized razors that keep their bright, and have tough and hard edges... So this part is not surprising.

However, I thought the TI razors which use Silver Steel do stain if you just look at them the wrong way :rant: maybe TI uses a special Silver Steel?

Cheers
Ivo

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Really, the important part of the passage was that chromium was added to the steel. It makes the steel deep, rather than shallow, hardening. Probably, the TI steel has very high carbon and little chromium...just enough to get the hardening benefit without much in the way of stain resistance. There doesn't seem to be a standard for what is "silver steel", so I'm sure formulations vary.

That ain't the truth.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/hawley/collect...xamples-1.html

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COMMENTS - These makers made razors from silver steel and marked them as such, but this one isn't. Other razormakers used silver steel. Messrs Rhodes of The Wicker, Sheffield, wrote a booklet on razors in 1824 having experimented with silver steel. Note that Pearce was using this metal for his razors. The instigator of this metal was Faraday in London, who got Sanderson of West Street, Sheffield to make samples of silver steel on his behalf and no doubt sold the steel to other razormakers.

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Faraday was using silver in his steel.

It's true to say that there is no silver used in it's production today, but initially it was developed using silver by Michael Faraday.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_4j...uTflep_ZYXBHXM

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Originally Posted by ernestrome

That ain't the truth.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/hawley/collect...xamples-1.html


Faraday was using silver in his steel.

It's true to say that there is no silver used in it's production today, but initially it was developed using silver by Michael Faraday.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_4j...uTflep_ZYXBHXM

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It appears from the articles you provided us that while Faraday may have, indeed, experimented with silver in steel, and even had a razor or two made from it, nothing in this article contradicts what I posted. Faraday may have had steel with a bit of silver in it for his experiments, but nothing in the article suggests any other maker who used "silver steel" did so. Faraday may have indeed sold his steel to other razor makers, but there's nothing to say how much was provided, or that any of them actually used his steel. It also doesn't say that Faraday was the developer of anything other than a few alloys he used for experments. I have never heard of Faraday as a major supplier of steel to the cutlery industry. As I've always maintained, "silver steel" is advertising verbiage. While I can understand your misapprehension, one person does not an entire type of steel change. The article, while seeming to infer that Faraday used the steel with silver in it for his razors, does not actually say so. It claims that "occasionally in later life Faraday would present one of his friends with a razor made of his own special steel." This comes after a mention of other alloys which apparently didn't do much. Also, the article explicitly states that silver steel was used for some time in making fenders, but doesn't elucidate whether it was Faraday's version or the chromium-added version (I suspect the latter). I have never seen a metallurgical analysis of "silver steel" which contains any silver. So your statement "that ain't the truth" seems to be inaccurate. Not saying you're wrong, but the information you've provided doesn't seem to contradict my source in any way but the most superficial.

It's possible that some makers actually used silver in their steel...I won't say you're 'wrong', but I would say it's not the norm, nor was it ever. I was talking about "in general" rather than a few isolated cases. I'm sure there's a maker out there who attemped to alloy his steel with potassium to make exploding steel, but it's not the norm. I found these pretty interesting, as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel
http://www.silver-steel.co.uk/SilverSteelBS1407.html (I believe in that analysis the Si is silcon and the S is Sulfur...the sulfur, at least, considered an impurity).

I would think adding actual silver to a steel alloy would be precisely counterproductive in that it would more likely weaken the structure and possibly not add much more corrosion resistance than the chromium.

but that's being said without any "formal" metallurgical expertise... grain o' salt req'd.

A timely post for me. I've been cleaning up a Joseph Elliot "best silver steel" this week. I love the shine but the pitting is some serious work. I'm curious to see whether I can bring my regular steel to a similar polish that the silver steel takes.

- Bob

Some time ago, I went through all the modern metallurgical texts I could find. In today's practices, silver steel shares the same characteristics as O-1 tool steel with slight differences in steel mill's forumlae.

It is quite possible that silver was tested experimentally, although with the seeming ease that it tarnishes alone, I don't know why they would have used it other than "I wonder what this will do?" I know of a present day knifemaker who has "welded" fine silver between layers of steel. It makes for a delightful pattern but unless the steel is the edge it doesn't cut worth much.

It's a good discussion. The more known about the foundations of the industry helps us all.

Just some personal observations to add to this topic.
I owe a silversteel DOVO and a Henckels Friodur that has "finest silberstahl" stamped on the tang.
The Dovo is far from stainless, while the Friodur seems to almost possess the stainless properties from a modern kitchen knife.
The Friodur behaves more resilient on the hone than the DOVO.

There seems to be a clear difference between the alloys of both steels.

Could it be possible that "Silver"steel is just a kind of marketing term, that different razor manufacturers use(d) to lend some of their razors a bit more luster and quality? According to the store where I bough it, the Dovo Silversteel just takes a bit of a nicer polish than their carbon-steel razors.
Maybe "silversteel" just means "slightly more expensive than regular carbon steel" without it being an exact recipe for alloy.

slightly:OT...
Imagine that in 100 years a big meteor impact causes some kind of magnetic storm that worldwide erases all digital data. Another 100 years thereafter someone wants to figure out what the addition "light" means as it was printed on more than half of the food and beverage products in the early 21st century. If that person hopes to find some standardized definition, he could search all his life and still haven't found it.

Just wondering...

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

It is quite possible that silver was tested experimentally, although with the seeming ease that it tarnishes alone, I don't know why they would have used it other than "I wonder what this will do?"

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Mike, thanks for posting - I think you are probably the best versed in metalurgy here.

My speculation is the same - why not try alloying with silver and see what happens. The advantage is that it was very accessible in very pure form. Not sure same was true back then with Cromium - do you have any insight on this?
My impression from previous readings were that the alloying was at 0.02% level, not sure whether that's enough to change the mechanical properties or is it just the looks.
I'm sure that such small fractions could be enough to change the surface chemistry. After all a tiny bit of moisture makes big difference in oxidation/corrosion.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Just some personal observations to add to this topic.
I owe a silversteel DOVO and a Henckels Friodur that has "finest silberstahl" stamped on the tang.
The Dovo is far from stainless, while the Friodur seems to almost possess the stainless properties from a modern kitchen knife.
The Friodur behaves more resilient on the hone than the DOVO.

There seems to be a clear difference between the alloys of both steels.

Could it be possible that "Silver"steel is just a kind of marketing term, that different razor manufacturers use(d) to lend some of their razors a bit more luster and quality? According to the store where I bough it, the Dovo Silversteel just takes a bit of a nicer polish than their carbon-steel razors.
Maybe "silversteel" just means "slightly more expensive than regular carbon steel" without it being an exact recipe for alloy.

slightly:OT...
Imagine that in 100 years a big meteor impact causes some kind of magnetic storm that worldwide erases all digital data. Another 100 years thereafter someone wants to figure out what the addition "light" means as it was printed on more than half of the food and beverage products in the early 21st century. If that person hopes to find some standardized definition, he could search all his life and still haven't found it.

Just wondering...

Bart.

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Exactly right. Its a marketing tactic like oldsmobile used to advertise their cars came with the "rocket 98 engine" and many believed the engine was something special until a guy sued GM and won over the claim. To add silver to the steel would do nothing to enhance it in any way. it wouldn't even add to the color in such small qualtities. Silver is added to yellow Gold along with either nickel or palladium to make what we call white gold but its really grey gold. However the silver really does nothing for the color. The stuff is soft, tarnishes and if anything would make the metal softer.

Silver steel is not a marketing gimmick nor is it a form of stainless steel. It is actually a high carbon alloy steel that meets the following specifications:

http://www.silver-steel.co.uk/SilverSteelBS1407.html

These are Brittish specs. There are similar German specifications as well (DIN 1.2002) and French (AFNOR 120C2).

The carbon content is usually above 1% and it does contain some Chrome, usually about 0.40%, so can be thought of as a high carbon alloy. The chrome content is, however, substancially less than even some of the so called "low chrome" alloys such as 2-1/4 Chrome - 1/2 Moly.

It is usually considered a tool grade steel. It gets its name because of its bright appeance, which is due to the high carbon content. It is also known as "bright steel". With proper heat treating, it will harden to a RC of about 64.

That is quite a sufficient reference to chemistry, very similar to the one I reviewed in my materials book. Thanks fcc...

In the "old days" I don't think as much was known about the common alloying elements like chromium or the others like vanadium or moly. There wasn't good enough chemistry at that time to separate those because their melting temperatures, to isolate them from the iron ore, were too close to the iron. Where silver and the other metals, they had a much larger experience working (since before the iron age) and could easily separate them by melting temperatures.

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Originally Posted by fccexpert

Silver steel is not a marketing gimmick nor is it a form of stainless steel. It is actually a high carbon alloy steel that meets the following specifications:

http://www.silver-steel.co.uk/SilverSteelBS1407.html

These are Brittish specs. There are similar German specifications as well (DIN 1.2002) and French (AFNOR 120C2).

The carbon content is usually above 1% and it does contain some Chrome, usually about 0.40%, so can be thought of as a high carbon alloy. The chrome content is, however, substancially less than even some of the so called "low chrome" alloys such as 2-1/4 Chrome - 1/2 Moly.

It is usually considered a tool grade steel. It gets its name because of its bright appeance, which is due to the high carbon content. It is also known as "bright steel". With proper heat treating, it will harden to a RC of about 64.

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I already posted that, several back. :D The question is: since it doesn't actually have silver in it, how can calling it "silver steel" be anything other than a marketing ploy? (Which was my initial point in starting this thread in the first place)
I was hoping to dispel any myths surrounding the steel. It's just very good, extremely clean tool steel that heat treats well and will take a very fine edge. Kinda like most any modern cutlery grade steel.

Thanks Joe!!!

This explains why a couple of my antique saws always work better than my others. I can see why this was such a revolution in hand saw technology. A peice of equipment every man had to own, much like a razor. When seeing how well it improved the performance of one cutting tool I can see why the men of that era would have been attracted to another cutting tool expecting similar improvments in performance. Weather they were there or not.

I thought this post was pretty interesting and learned something from it. I know it's an older post.... Just wondering if any new info has surfaced on Sheffield Steel?

New in what way?

If you mean silver steel it's just a term and it contains no silver. Apparently, going way way back there was an alloy of steel that did contain minute amounts of silver but that's more a historical fact. It was never used in razors.

We have had quite a few posts on the subject of sheffield steel but I don't know if anyone has ever melted some down and analyzed it. You might research this.

Back when I was at technological high school in Brazil (precision mechanics at Swiss-Brazilian SENAI school), silver steel was the name we used to very hard Chrome-Tungsten steel alloy used to make hand-held lathe tool bits. It was not so hard and brittle as the common high speed steel, but ate through 1040, 1075 and 1090 very well. There was no silver in the alloy, but the shade it reflects the light remember the color of silver, more yellowish than bluish.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

New in what way?

If you mean silver steel it's just a term and it contains no silver. Apparently, going way way back there was an alloy of steel that did contain minute amounts of silver but that's more a historical fact. It was never used in razors.

We have had quite a few posts on the subject of sheffield steel but I don't know if anyone has ever melted some down and analyzed it. You might research this.

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New knowledge about the composition of the steel. I'll pass on doing a meltdown and analysing the metal. I know about the "silver" term used for it. A marketing gimmick. I am guessing "cast" steel is the same too? Whatever formulas they used way back then was and is still pretty darn good. Some very old razors still being used on a daily basis.