Japanese Razors

So finally after a couple weeks of shipping, and another week or so of it being stuck in customs, my 2 new shiny Japanese Razors have showed up!

The very first thing I noticed, was that I couldn't find the seam in the wooden box they came in. Somewhat of a small thing, but it still impressed me how the Japanese have such an attention to detail and a devotion to perfection.

They came to me about as blunt as a butter knife (at least for my tastes), but in comparison to most razors, about the same as a DOVO comes from the factory. I still think large razor companies should have a honemeister on-site to make each razor truly shave-ready. Who from DOVO or TI are actually shaving with their razors right out of the box? Anyway...back on topic, I was hoping for some reason that the Japanese would be a bit ahead, but possibly if I had gotten an Iwasaki...

Anyway, it did however come pretty well ground, and nearly flat. It only took around an hour to flatten the bevel perfectly on my DMT plates. My assumption is that they used a natural stone that may not have been perfectly flat, but still was pretty close. The pictures aren't the greatest...I'm no photographer, but I think you should be able to see the two types of steel, the outer steel is somewhat rough looking.

As for the shave, after honing on the DMT then using pastes down to 0.25 micron, I was very pleased with the results, but the razor seemed TOO sharp. I think with this type of steel that either Chromium Oxide or a Chinese 12k would be the ideal finish. I'll be getting a CrO paddle courtesy of a member here at SRP soon, so I'm hoping to see if that works well for me to calm the edge down a bit. With the proper finishing I think this razor has the potential to be vastly better than my other western style hollow ground razors...but it is worth noting I don't have any wedges, and I think my experience with this razor really makes me want to try one.

One other thing about the shave, is that this type of razor seems much easier to maneuver to me. And though some people say only the hollow ground side is supposed to be against your face when shaving, I used both sides and it worked very well, but you do have to adjust your angle as it is different for each side. I was also a bit worried about the size of the razor, but I find that I never use the entire length of any of my other razors anyway, and so the shave with this one didn't take any longer than usual.

Overall, it's quite a bit of work to get one of these out of Japan, but assuming you have the chance, I would venture to say that it is very much worth the time, effort and money that I put into this. Next stop...Iwasaki.......

The secret to the superior sharpness is the asymmetrical edge. I hope you didn't hone both sides equally because that could really mess up the symmetry of the edge. And yes you can shave with both sides just like you can drive your car around town in reverse all day or in low gear. It will work. However the razor is designed to have the concave side to your face at all times.

Not trying to be a smarty pants or anything but thats just how I see it.

Nice overview of your new Japanese razors, Droshi!

thebigspendur, I remember you used the analogy of driving the car in reverse before. Maybe this is a dumb question, because maybe driving in reserve doesn't hurt the car either (provided you can steer decently in reverse!), but is there any real harm to the razor when one shaves with both sides? Or does it provide an inferior shave?

If there's no harm to the razor, isn't saying the razor is designed only to work one way like telling a left-handed kid that he has to use his right hand? If the job gets done equally well either way and there's no harm to the tool, isn't saying it's designed to only be used one way kind of meaningless? Just curious!

best, Dan

I have always wanted to try one of those, but the plastic handle kinda turns me off. To me, things that are fine instruments or tools should have similar quality components throughout. If the steel is of a shave-worthy grade I'd prefer to see some nice wood or horn rather than cheap plastic. But I guess really matters is the performance, so glad to hear it's working for you.

And I would recommend that you do try a good wedge (or 1/4 hollow, pretty much the same thing, anything with some heft to it) because they give a much smoother shave. At least for me, the passes over my face are smoother with heftier blades. All of the full hollows I've used jump around like crazy and get caught in the thicker jawline/neck stubble. Not fun.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The secret to the superior sharpness is the asymmetrical edge. I hope you didn't hone both sides equally because that could really mess up the symmetry of the edge. And yes you can shave with both sides just like you can drive your car around town in reverse all day or in low gear. It will work. However the razor is designed to have the concave side to your face at all times.

Not trying to be a smarty pants or anything but thats just how I see it.

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Actually I'm not entirely convinced that the asymmetrical grind is the reason for the sharpness. It could be that the difference in steel type, tempering technique, or the shape/lack of scales could be the reason. Or it could be all of them combined.

Ive heard you say the same thing as well about only using the concave side. But by the same token, were straight razors not intended to be used by only barbers, but we use them at home? Anyway, if you look at the angle of the edge it is vastly different on each side, and as such you have to vastly adjust the angle against your face when using it if you do switch sides. But does one side seem like it shaves better than the other? To me....no. To someone else? Maybe. Is it possible to use only the concave side on yourself? Yes, I did try it....but it is much much more difficult, and unless I really worked on the technique, I don't think the quality of the shave would improve at all. So the real question is...is it worth developing the technique to use only the concave side, in the hopes that it might be a better shave? I don't know, someday I might....but for now, I'll use both. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I have always wanted to try one of those, but the plastic handle kinda turns me off. To me, things that are fine instruments or tools should have similar quality components throughout. If the steel is of a shave-worthy grade I'd prefer to see some nice wood or horn rather than cheap plastic. But I guess really matters is the performance, so glad to hear it's working for you.

And I would recommend that you do try a good wedge (or 1/4 hollow, pretty much the same thing, anything with some heft to it) because they give a much smoother shave. At least for me, the passes over my face are smoother with heftier blades. All of the full hollows I've used jump around like crazy and get caught in the thicker jawline/neck stubble. Not fun.

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Yeah, the plastic handle is kinda lame looking....but to be honest it performs amazingly when wet. I wanted to get rid of it and put on some katana looking hand wrap, but at this point I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.

And I really do want to try a wedge, maybe something large like a 7/8-9/8. But that raises the question of if it would be too large. This razor is so fantastic to me because it is so manuverable and small yet not difficult to handle (at least for me).

Personally I feel that if you are going to learn to do something or use a tool it should be done the correct way. There are many things that we all do in life for convenience or because its easier. We all here shave with a straight but wouldn't it be easier to use a feather or a DE or a cartridge. We spend all kinds of time advising each other how to properly hone and strop. There are many ways of doing these things and to an extent they all work, some better than others and some will do damage but we all try and do it the right way. Would you use your high dollar kitchen knives to pry something up? Many do. Would you use your straight as a letter opener or shave at a 90 degree angle? Would you strop with major downwards pressure or hone with a 600 mesh diamond hone? No, we all try to do it the right way and I think the traditional japanese razor is designed to be used a certain way and thats just the way it is. Yes you can use it on the convex side and it will shave almost as well however I found it is much less comfortable but of course easier to use. Thats the point with the japanese razor, it requires a whole different skill set to use and thats what makes it challenging to use and your rewarded with the best possible shave. To say well, I just use both sides and its easy is no different than someone saying I'll use a feather, it's easy and it's really a straight anyway and I don't have to learn to strop and hone.

If you hone it equally on both sides you will eventually lose the asymmetrical characteristics and change the geometry. Also as far as the keaness of the razor goes I don't buy the steel type reason because you can buy a damascus type razor or a Livi takeda and you still don't get that kind of keaness. When you grind a razor with equal edges there is a compromise there but when you grind it with the specific intention that only one side is to be used you are engineering the max performance out of it. Many people make the mistake in thinking the japanese razor is really a wedge and of course it is nothing like that.

You know to a Japanese I would bet reading about guys using both sides would be similar to us reading about someone using a western straight at a 90 degree angle. We would laugh it it as we do in posts here.

And that's my editorial for the week.

I don't really see how all those examples are equivalent. Most of them are not as effective as the alternative. To me I see no improvement one way or another between sides. It could be me, my razor or some other reason. But just because something is "supposed" to be a certain way doesn't mean it can't be equally as effective another way. But it does mean that in can be vastly less effective as in your examples as well, my point only being that in this case to me it is not.

Maybe with your razor it's not as comfortable because of the angle difference? I'm also not ruling out the possibility that shaving with only one side might be better and that my face or myself can't detect the difference. I have tried it both ways, and if there's a better way I'll for sure try it, but for me I just don't see the difference. Maybe as my skill at shaving and honing increase I might.

The way I honed my razor was with 3 strokes hollow side, 2 strokes wedge side. At first I went in a washboard style doing 3 forward and 3 backward strokes, then flipping and doing the same thing twice...etc. I found that finish to be ok, but then I did the same 3:2 ratio, except didn't backhone. Basically I did 1 forward hollow stroke, 1 forward wedge, 1 forward hollow, 1 forward wedge, 1 forward hollow...then repeated (so 2 forward hollow strokes end up being together) and kept that same ratio that way. I found doing that vastly improved the edge (with my DMT setup anyway), though maybe with a traditional japanese hone as would normally be used the "washboard" style is much better.

My point with this is also to illustrate how tradition may or may not work for a particular person or setup for whatever reason.

Anyway, again, not saying your wrong, I do believe they were intended to use only one side...I just can't think of a practical reason to not use the other side...only tradition as an answer. Any ideas?

Bit of an update here. I decided to put my razor where my mouth is (figure of speech) and try to shave entirely with the hollow side towards my face this time. I have also further refined my honing technique.

My observations about the shave: it was actually pretty easy to reach most places with just the hollow side. Only inconvenient in a couple places, which I used my left hand to remedy there. I must say...this time I did notice a difference. The shave was a bit more comfortable and because of the angles, some places that I previously usually never had BBS are now BBS.

Although some of this could be attributed to a better honing job....I think it may be some of each. And I'm glad I tried only using one side. As a control experiement next time I will shave with only the wedge side and see if I get any irritation or discomfort, or a less close shave. Except in between I won't hone, only strop. And the time after that I'll try shaving with both sides as I did before and see. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out something, it could be that only in a few places it matters that you use the concave side or something like that.

As to the honing technique, still keeping the 3:2 ratio, I've noticed that being very light on the razor while honing the concave side, and pressing a tad on the wedge side with a "washboard" technique produces a better edge for me. At least this is on my DMT D8EE. Then I finished on 0.25 diamond paste. I haven't yet had the chance to try newsprint, and soon I'll be getting a chromium paddle, and hopefully a chinese 12k, so one of these days I'll make a comprehensive post on honing these types of razors.

My only point here is that there are some things that are intended to be done a certain way and of course you can do them anyway you wish if your satisfied with the result. No problem there. However what I will tell you is that if you use a traditional Japanese straight in the manner you do you will never be able to say you have mastered the razor. I'm not trying to sound like a wise a** or anything like that but its like a kid learning to ride a bycicle with training wheels on but he never takes them off and thinks he has mastered the bike. The training wheels are a crutch enabling him to ride the same way using both sides is a crutch enabling you to use the razor.

I had my first shave with a japanese razor last week (not a tosuke), and its definitely an experience. I shaved only with the concave side...super easy, smooth, comfortable shave on the left side of my face, not so much on the right. Until I went ATG, then it was the opposite.

And thats the thing about Japanese razors...it seems like it'd take an awful lot of practice to be able to shave one side as well as the other, given the different handle position. I dunno if I would ever be able to shave both sides equally well, unless I had two razors, with the concave grind on opposite sides (a "lefty" and a "righty" razor if you will). I still love this thing, and will keep using it, and attempting to get as proficient as possible with it.

I just received my first Tosuke as well, honed it up, and the thing is an absolute beast. Now I know what everyone is talking about with the "cuts like butta" simile ;) The first thing I thought as I used it was that it's wicked light. But I have only ever used a Wapi, and I understand those are on the heavier side to begin with. I thought maybe that the blade was so light would cause a problem at first, but the thing is just so sharp/smooth it has no problems!

I tested it both ways... I very much like the idea of sticking to the traditional way of using the razor with only the concave side, but I couldn't resist trying the other side just to see if it shaved equally well, and from what I could gather there was no difference in performance. I'm going to be sticking with the traditional method, however, for my own amusement lol.

I've got one more on the way and am very curious as to the size versus the one I have now. I wanted to be a Tosuke-only shaver, but the familiarity of the heavy Wapi blade might make me hang on to it for a while longer.

Has anyone heard of any other good Japanese razor smiths besides Tosuke and Iwasaki? I know some of those are possibly made by other people as well, but I'm looking to find a couple cheaper razors for friends that want to try out Japanese straights.

The prices on Tosuke (made by him, or not) are going up...so if anyone has ones made by someone else, post where you got it from or the smith's name.

Thanks!

There were many many Japanes straight makers over the years. Our talk about these two is like two guys in Japan talking about western straights and the only names they ever heard were Dovo and TI and think that's it. If you check out the japan Yahoo sites with babelfish help you will see many many other razors up for auction all the time. There is one guy from Japan on Eboy who sells old straights but they are in pretty rough shape.

thebig,

You keep referring to the correct way to do things with respect to the Japanese style razor. Please let us know what these correct methods are for, e.g., sharpening the blade. Droshi indicated what honing method he was using only to be told that it was wrong. Cool. What's wrong about it? You never know, I may want to buy one of those nifty razors and should know how to hone it. Hopefully this is not a Samurai secret only known to those who grab the fiery tamahagane and stroke it to form with their bare hands.

I think he was just referring to me deviating from "correct" form in general. But I could be wrong...

I believe the correct traditional way to hone these is on a natural Japanese stone, using the "washboard" technique with a 3:2 ratio of 3 strokes hollow side (back and forth), 2 strokes wedge side (back and forth). If you want to make a shorter "pass", you just shorten the length of your washboard strokes. With natural stones I believe pressure is always used even up until final finishing, but I don't know for sure.

For me I just went to try to experiment. This was one of the reasons for me purchasing a couple Tosuke razors before I bought an Iwasaki to experiment with. Right now, I'm trying to find some cheaper ones for a couple friends who I have sparked their interest in, but $150+ is too much for them to spend right off on a first razor. I'll check out yahoo auctions...I cruised around babashoten, but the only page I found was the one I already knew about.

Thanks for the tip on where to look...I was quite sure I've seen other vintage razors around, so I knew they existed. But you are right when you say it would be like someone else talking about only DOVO and TI, because they are the only brands in production still (similar to Tosuke and Iwasaki). I'll post if I find anything or secure any more razors in auctions.

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Originally Posted by Droshi

I think he was just referring to me deviating from "correct" form in general. But I could be wrong...

I believe the correct traditional way to hone these is on a natural Japanese stone, using the "washboard" technique with a 3:2 ratio of 3 strokes hollow side (back and forth), 2 strokes wedge side (back and forth). If you want to make a shorter "pass", you just shorten the length of your washboard strokes. With natural stones I believe pressure is always used even up until final finishing, but I don't know for sure.

For me I just went to try to experiment. This was one of the reasons for me purchasing a couple Tosuke razors before I bought an Iwasaki to experiment with. Right now, I'm trying to find some cheaper ones for a couple friends who I have sparked their interest in, but $150+ is too much for them to spend right off on a first razor. I'll check out yahoo auctions...I cruised around babashoten, but the only page I found was the one I already knew about.

Thanks for the tip on where to look...I was quite sure I've seen other vintage razors around, so I knew they existed. But you are right when you say it would be like someone else talking about only DOVO and TI, because they are the only brands in production still (similar to Tosuke and Iwasaki). I'll post if I find anything or secure any more razors in auctions.

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What is the difference between the Iwasaki and the Tosuke. I've seen the reviews on the Tosuke but nothing on the Iwasaki. These can be bought with the Iwasaki being substantially more expensive. Since you've tried both, can you tell about the difference between the two.

Going to repost my PM to you, incase anyone else has the same question.

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Actually I don't own an Iwasaki (yet), though I do plan to buy one at some point. The differences, as far as I know, are:
(1) Iwasaki razors end up being much harder, either through hardening process, or steel choice. As a result they are more difficult to hone, but diamond pastes should make quick work of them.
(2) Many Tosuke labeled razors are actually not made by Master Inuoe Tosuke, but rather by associates. Whereas I believe Iwasaki razors are always made by either himself or his apprentice only.
(3) Tosuke razors have a rubber grip, and while it isn't that great to look at, it performs very very well when wet. Iwasaki razors are bare metal handles.
(4) In general, because of the greater knowledge of the smith, and because of his fame in Japan...Iwasaki razors are known to be of much higher quality in both the quality of shave, and the ability to take a better edge and hold it longer.

Overall both are great razors, but they are somewhat on different levels, and are reflected by their price points. I happen to think that both razors are worth the money they are normally priced at, and even a bit higher I would pay for the Tosuke razors.

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We'll see how this holds up when I acquire an Iwasaki razor to compare.

I received my Iwasaki from Japan Woodworker about a week ago and finally got it honed up really nicely. I shaved this morning and got the closest shave I've ever done with my own hands. I tried shaving with both sides at first, but then only used the concave side because it clearly cut better. It was like butter!

However, I have no idea of how to properly hold the razor. I pretty much hacked my way through it. Is anyone aware of illustrations or photos or video of someone properly using one of these?

So far as I know there is no "proper" accepted way to hone these exactly. Most original documentation is pretty general, showing the washboard technique on a natural stone with slurry.

Personally I'm learning more and more about honing my Tosukes, they are very particular. And while I can get good results by doing what I've compiled between here and B&B forums, I get much better results by paying more attention to the asymmetrical grind. In other words, I find it's not as important to have the exact 2:3 ratio as much as it is to make sure the wedge side is ground down each pass. Very often with light pressure a burr builds up (on the wedge side) from stroking the hollow side within only 2 back and forth passes. I find that 3-4 passes are necessary on the wedge side to get everything to be in contact with the hone, but the problem is that it could be different for different hones. This leads me to conclude that the uneven ratio is not as much for keeping the razor even, but more for immediate function. I don't think if you use even passes that you would change the razor shape fundamentally, it just won't be as keen an edge as possible. Also I believe finishing on the hollow side gives a smoother edge as compared to finishing your last passes on the wedge side, my theory is that the burr is then aligned so that the hollow side towards your face is the most comfortable. You can hone it the other way, but this is one contributing factor to why you should only use one side against your face, and it does depend on how it's honed.

Once I get my chinese 12k I'm going to compile all my findings into one post that will hopefully be a good resource on how to hone these razors. Right now it seems most of the information available is fragmented and not all that accurate, at least for my razors.

OOPS -- I meant to learn the proper way to hone it while shaving, not honing.

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Originally Posted by prhomme

OOPS -- I meant to learn the proper way to hone it while shaving, not honing.

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While I wouldn't hone the razor while shaving...I see what you mean :D

As far as grips...experiment. Sometimes I hold it like I would a pencil, sometimes other ways with the blade off either side. Pretty much any way you can think to hold it securely should be ok.

It would seem to me the real reason you should shave with the concave side towards your face is that the grind on these razors is more like the tip of a chisel. One side is flatter than the other.
http://www.rasurpur.de/english/shop/.../kamisori5.jpg

Now then, if you have ever used a chisel, you will know that there is a definite difference in which side you use. if you have the angled side towards the workpiece, and the flat side away from it, the chisel glides along and removes a thin section of wood. If you flip it over, the geometry causes the chisel to no longer glide along the workpiece, but rather to dig into it, unless you can reduce the angle to very flat to the work surface.

So, I think this is why it is recommended to keep the concave side towards your face.