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I'm probably going to get killed for even asking this one!!!:chop:
But what really is the difference? Fair enough, you get fancy rare materials and nicely decorated scales/blades and whatever, but if its down to blade quality surely there is nothing sharper than a replacable factory sharpened blade? ..... Just wondering...:shrug:
A Livi razor is a very good straight razor and a shavette is not a straight razor. The difference is that the straight razor evolved over hundreds of years to provide the perfect shave. A shavette shaves but it was not designed to provide a perfect shave, it was designed to use disposable blades for health reasons and handle like a straight. The disposable blade was not designed to give the perfect shave, it was designed to be a functional and economical disposable blade. King Gilette, the inventor of the disposable blade, wanted a product that would be used and thrown away so that the customer would always have to buy more. Why is shaving with a straight better than with a disposable blade. IMO it has to do with the stiffness and weight of the straight versus the flexibility and lightness of the Shavette. You can shave with a Shavette but it is more difficult and more irritating.
well put. great post
Would you ask if there is any difference between a Ferrari Enzo and a Austin Metro?... :hmmm: :D
if i could change the comparison a bit, and say a livi vs. a 150 yr old W&B. to me this is where i wanted a livi to see what the difference is. to get a blade honed by the great mastro, the beautiful work of art that it is and compare that to my $5 antique store restore.
let me just say i have learned that my honing shaves me just as well as his. i get just as good a shave from all of my other razors, and i paid a whole lot less for them. with that being said, i love my livi. it is a work of art and a great shaver. the man is a true master at his craft and i am priviliged to own one of his razors. however if you just want to get rid of some facial hair, you can do it a whole lot cheaper.
my thoughts.
good luck.
vgod
About $500,000 USD :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by fpessanha
VERY WELL DESCRIBED Chimensch!!
A Shavette will perform the task-its unforgiving, but will get the job done. A Livi, or ANY quality made Str8,once properly honed will also get the job done,and your face will let you know why we prefer just about ANY other razor than those disposable blade creations.
Shave with one of each, then re-ask your question.
THEN, we can atalk about the extra "value" of those rare materials, etc.
If Livi made a razor with plastic scales, and no adornment, the razor would surely be much less expensive than his current offerings. It would still be quite pricey. I happen to be one that will pay for beauty (form) as long as the thing still funtions impeccably.
+1! My Livi has soul ! I love shaving with the thing and he is one of the best makers there is or was. IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by vgod
At some point you're paying for a name too.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
American (I say that because that is where I'm from) consumers have moved from an emphasis on quality to an emphasis on convenience, and their immediate price point. And that is what Gillette is pursuing, or pushing.
Oh, absolutely. That's part of what I meant to imply with "it would still be expensive" even if unadorned. I should ahve said so explicitly. Is his time and work really that much more valuiable than some other very highly regarded straight makers? Maybe, maybe not.Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27
:OTSorry about this.But I have to say that I don't find the Livis or other customs overpriced at all.
I actually don't understand how making such treasures can be very profitieble at all.I know he/they make several razors at a time, but still, considering the hours for each razor:shrug:
If you hire me as a carpenter, you pay about 500$ a day, now think of a lawier.......
I don't think they are in it for the money.wich I'm offcourse very thankfull for
I hope this isn't a response to what I wrote. I did not mean to say that at all. I am a lawyer, and even at "friend prices" I couldn't do a very good job on much at all before my fees got to at least what a Livi costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin
Great responses to a good question. A while ago I had a brief discussion on why some Japanese razors cost so much and prized so highly and my comments fit here. It is not only the quality of the item but the history behind the item that enhances the price.
First, if the shavette were made by hand and not by an automated machine it would cost a lot more. This relates into history as quality is not guaranteed.
Second, if the shavette were hand made by a skilled craftsman with Livi's reputation monitoring each step the cost would go up more. This relates into quality and history.
Third, as was mentioned above, the intent of the Livi straight is to provide a great shave presented in a great package where the Shavette was designed and built to use disposable blades and just get the job done as to do those in an acceptable manor.
As with most things in life, you get what you pay for and if the price sounds to good to be true it usually is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1
He he, not at all.I have just been wondering about it, and how they(Custom makers) can actually make a decent living at what they do.
It's not easy. There are a lot of things to factor in such as time spent, materials cost, DISPOSABLE materials cost (belts, blades, oil, etc.), electricity, etc. Certain aspects of making a razor go quickly and certain don't. Certain procedures are very grueling and/or sensitive and others aren't. It isn't just about "a razor that shaves" as we all I'm sure know. It's a handmade piece of art that has (hopefully) taken a LOT of thought by the maker. One famous knifemaker once said something along the lines of: "you can always tell the full time makers from the amateurs by looking at their price. The amateurs don't charge enough."Quote:
Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin
I wasn't complaining about cost, if that is what you were refering to. Making a razor has high fixed costs, and high labor costs, especially if the system is not automated at all. I'll bet once it all is said and done, he doesn't have that much a markup in it at all. The materials aren't that much, but the value added is very high.Quote:
Originally Posted by KristofferBodvin
I wasn't refering to anything.Just been wondering about it, thats all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27
A full time razor or cutlery maker is a rare thing. Most guys do it as a sideline or hobbie. I think Tim Zowada is the only full time knife maker in the U.S. Livi make s all kinds of cutlery besides razors. Its not all that time consuming as you might thing. If your skilled you can turn out a razor pretty fast.
As has been said your paying for the guys reputation and experience. Thats why a Zowada cost what it does and an unknown razor maker charges far less though the final product might be just a good.
Lastly, the shave is not the reason to buy these razors. A $50 Eboy special can shave just a good. If that's how you look at it its not for you.
Price :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoochiewatchie
I would think a master would also charge for the skill. I could buy all those things and use all of that time and energy you just listed and still not be able to produce anything like a master's work. The craftsmanship alone carries a price tag, or it should in my opinion!Quote:
Originally Posted by Philadelph
....So am i right in thinking then that the shave from a LIVI, a cheap DOVO or whatever, if done correctly, can be pretty much the same. I know there are arguments about materials/time/skill/reputation or whatever...but if a cheap fiat uno could drive as well, as fast and handle as well as a ferrari enzo (albeit looking crap) i'd save my money and go for the fiat. At the end of the day does it really matter if you get a good shave? The shave will be just as smooth whether the scales are made from abalone, plastic or if the blade is made from any number of razor quality steels? Put a ferrari badge on it if you want..
(P.S no offence intended to LIVI, their razors are quality!!) Just using them as an example of a very expensive razor.
If you want to move yourself from point A to point B then the fiat will do it. The enzo will do the same thing.
When you walk out the door to make your trip in the fiat the guy across the street mowing his yard catches your attention. When you walk out the door to make your trip in the enzo you don't notice the guy across the street, you're looking at the enzo.
While you're driving the fiat you're thinking about your shopping list, work, what you're going to do after you get to point B. While you're driving the enzo you're completely absorbed in driving the car, the sound, the feel, and admiring the fit and finish of the interior.
After you get to point B... you're at point B. :tu
Well put. I understand that the LIVI is naturally the nicer one, but if we're purely talking about the end result (not fancy scales/blades/pleasure of seeing it shimmer in the mirror) are we not getting a the same end result whether we spend $1 or $1000? I know which one i'd buy if i had the money!! But for a purely practical end result, come on, admit it, you get the same answer!! :-)
You're right Yahoo. In the end the shave from any quality blade should be the same assuming it's honed right. The car example is a bit extreme. The car you pay attention to because of the cost, not the cost relative to a cheaper car but the fact that it was horribly expensive. A Livi on the other hand is expensive compared to other razors but not too expensive relative to other things in life. I stared at my flat screen every time i walked into the room, marveling at the beauty and the price, after a while it became just a TV.
I'm sure in the beginning you marvel at the fact that you're shaving with a Livi, and that fact may make you enjoy the shave much more. But 10 years from now, will you still marvel at it the same way every shave? I doubt it. It's the process as a whole that makes what we do so enjoyable. I don't think the pleasure of someone shaving with a Livi is greater than that of someone shave with a NOS Duck, or even an ebay special that they restored and honed themself.
You may greatly enjoy your Ferrari, but just because it's more expensive and a better vehicle than the one Joe Smith built with his dad, doesn't mean you enjoy the drive more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoochiewatchie
IMO the shave from a true straight razor (Livi, or a vintage str8) Vs a Shavette is not the same and does not yield the same end results and the differences are IMO quite significant. If you are looking for results get a vintage str8 and skip the shavette.
Frankly to compare a Livi to a shavette would be like comparing a
Fine Cuban Cigar to a cigarette. Smoke a fine cigar and a cigarette both will give you a nicotine fix but there is no doubt which one will provide great flavor and an unmatched experience and make it worth your time.
I just had to respond to this one. First of all there are hundreds more full time knifemakers in the U.S. than I think you realize. I know several personally. One in particular completes maybe one or two a month if he's lucky and that is full time. He said maybe 6 solid hours of work a day. His knives sell for thousands and are worth it when you see it up close. Do I have that money to spend? No. But for someone who is that into knives, they would be very happy with one. They are fully functional but just as artistic. Obviously, I also don't think you realize how much time doing certain intricate things may take. One knife may have filework that takes upwards of 20 hours. Now anyone can throw down some repeating pattern like slashes across a spine and call it filework but that doesn't mean it was done well. As for damascus, until you have made some yourself from scratch (I have) then I don't think you will ever appreciate why it fetches prices that can reach hundreds per inch. There are so many things going into a custom that the end user would never even think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
It is more than reputation and experience. Personally I think some customs are underpriced considering the work that goes in. The shaves will probably all be comparable so no, that cannot really factor into price and it would not be a good reason to buy one.
Well, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that the Livi is better, even if you discount scale materials, inlays, etc. I only own one Livi, so perhaps I'm lucky with having such a good impression of it, but it is without doubt the most true and balanced blade I have, and that's comparing them with Wapis, Dovos, TIs and vintage blades. One of my Dovos, though a great shaver, is ever so slightly warped, which makes it somewhat more difficult to hone. The Wapis are good, but the balance is all wrong (in my opinion, not necessarily others' opinion!) -- I have rescaled a Wapi and still am not satisfied with the way it sits in my hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoochiewatchie
And so on. The Livi is pretty much perfect in every respect. It is easy to hone (despite being made from hard stainless steel), it's easy to manoeuvre around the face, it keeps an edge longer than my other blades, and yes, it looks good.
I've had the Livi 18 months and hand on heart I honestly feel it is clearly better quality than my other blades, be they factory made or custom, vintage or new. Whether the increase in quality is worth the increase in price is a different matter altogether -- YMMV.
There, y'all can jump down my throat now! :w
One thing here. The comparison should be of VALUE not absolute price. That value could be artistic, balance, function, whatever. As soon as you say you only think about the absolute cost of the car then that is something else altogether. I think Yahoo is asking what the difference is. I think the car analogy is a very good one. There *are* some functional differences as well (assumption on my part since I don't own a Livi or anything close to that category). Balance and proportion were mentioned.
Surely there are diminishing returns as with most any high end item. It's usually orders of magnitude more difficult to go from 80% to 90% than it is to go from 60% to 70%. It's subjective if that increase is worth it to you.
I believe what Yahoo is asking is "Is it better?". How much better is a matter of degree and how much that's worth to you is subjective.
Quick, you're saying the question here should be one of value, not price. I agree about the price aspect but I disagree about the value part. Value, as you said, is something based on any number of qualities that the end user finds attractive. A vegan may not value bone scales as much as I do, but that doesn't effect the razors ability in the least.
I think the question Yahoo had was whether or not the shave was any better with a Livi than a shavette. Well yes, we can all agree it would be better. Well then someone said what about compared to a vintage W&B, that's what I'm replying to, that's the good question. I think it would be easy to quantify a good shave. Was it smooth, is there irritatio, etc.
So now I post the question as such; if you were to go to a barber, and he shaved half your face with a well honed W&B, or any other vintage razor, and the other half with a Livi, could you tell the difference? In this you are comparing the two only with respect to their ability to remove hair from your face, and I think THAT is the question.
Yes, that's very much part of it. I don't think you can totally disassociate everything else though. And you've added a barber into the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCitron
You might say that both sides of your face came out the same.
Then you might ask the barber if he had an easier time doing one side or the other.
He might say that it was easier with the razor that was better balanced and even though he achieved the same result on this shave he wouldn't be able to use the other one for constantly giving shaves all day long.
Moving a bit more towards the intangible, he might say that one doesn't fit his hand so well and distracts him requiring more concentration on that part of if.
And finally, he says it just puts him in a better mood whenever he looks at that razor and uses it making his job more enjoyable. He finds that more people ask for a shave when he has it sitting out on the counter and they always choose that one when asked which razor they'd like him to use.
So for the first part there's no difference. I don't think Livi uses or produces significantly better steel than a quality vintage (or new) blade. I don't think you can achieve a better edge with a Livi. After that may be where his razors start to diverge from the average/ordinary.
So back to the cars :). Both got you to point B. Would you rather drive the fiat or the enzo? Would you pay more for the enzo than the fiat (not how much; but more)?
I added the barber to concentrate only on the shave, which it seems we agree could be exactly the same regardless of the blade.
You know, I may also ask the barber what he thought.
And he may say that he does this all day long regardless and didn't notice a difference between the two.
(On a personal note I feel the balance of my vintage razors is fine.)
He may say the one with the wonderful file work was distracting to look at while he shaves.
He may say he enjoys using a razor that has been doing it's duty for hundreds or years. (Yes, I know that's a bit extreme.)
At the end of the day he likes his pretty razor, but treasures the history of his vintage blade.
For what it's worth I interpreted the question as to which shaved better as pertaining strictly to the shave aspect, i.e. removing hair from the face. This is why I used the barber. This is why I disagreed with some of the posts. When you throw in balance, and materials, etc. you venture into the broader realm of shave experience. In that regard I don't disagree with you Quick. Though I don't have a Livi, I'm sure if I did it would be my favorite shaver for the reasons you mention.
And the Enzo, all day!:D