Extremely disappointed in new, honed TI

I've been using straights a little over a month now. I bought a Feather DX and a Lynn-honed Dovo 5/8" full hollow stainless. Only took a few shaves to realize the superior comfort of the Dovo, so I've pretty much retired the Feather. Nearly instantly the Dovo worked like a charm and my skills grew.

After ~2+ weeks of regular use it seemed to lose a touch of the bite it had originally. So I bought a sharpening strop and some diamond paste in 1/2 and 1 micron size, and a few dozen laps on each side of that plus the regular strop seemed to take the Dovo right back to its original bliss.

For no good reason I bought a lovely looking TI 5/8" singing model (reputedly Lynn-honed). And nearly coincidentally, I put a small nick on the Dovo's edge somehow, so that'll have to be sidelined until I get it honed.

The 1st shave today with the TI was horrid. I could hear it scraping across whiskers, but nothing was coming off unless I put undue pressure upon my face, and even then it was far from a clean sweep after a WTG/XTG/ATG (where skin allows) method. I was shaving much the same as w/ the Dovo, but ended up putting the TI aside.

Do singing blades require more pressure, a steeper angle, or some other technique to get great results?

No idea, but common courtesy would be to ask Classic shaving first and give them a chance to fix it, before posting it here.

Kristoffer.

I would strop it your not going to loose anything by trying unless your going to try to return it.

Matt

Whoops... edited cause I thought he got it from SRD... Nothing to see here..

FWIW, Lynn is not the only one honing for Classic nowadays so it may not lay at his door. Whoever honed it I am sure Classic will stand behind it . Will is a pretty good guy.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

FWIW, Lynn is not the only one honing for Classic nowadays so it may not lay at his door. Whoever honed it I am sure Classic will stand behind it . Will is a pretty good guy.

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+1
I'd bet it needs a touch up and they will make good on it.

well, it sounds like either classic missed it on the honing or you need to improve your technique.
extra hollows are a bit different than stiffer grinds, but they are fully capable of great shaves. in the end of the day it's just a tool, the skill to use it properly is essential.

It does say on the SKU that it is honed by Lynn, and it certainly looked perfectly gorgeous upon arrival. I assume it is properly honed. But only the shave matters.

I didn't post here thinking it is questioning honing capacities of anyone they employ, and ultimately would like to keep the razor if I can get a good shave out of it.

What I'd like to know is if others experience with extremely-narrow singing blades dictates how one shaves differently with them-or if perhaps others can say that the singing blade just didn't work for them and a thicker cut of blade did, for example.

I find that whoever has honed the blade, full singing razors just do not shave as well for me as heavier grinds. I have a fairly stiff beard and a heavy razor just sails right through while I feel a full hollow, singing type blade seems to catch and scrape for me.

No refection on the honing, different beards required different techniques, and possibly different razors.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I find that whoever has honed the balde full singing razors just do not shave as well for me as heavier grinds. I have a fairly stiff beard and a heavy razor just sails right through while I feel a full hollow, singing typoe blade seems to catch and scrape for me.

No refection on the honing, different beards required different techniques, and possibly different razors.

Tony

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AGREED!!!!!! 100%

I own a TI 5/8's Eagle Brand "Singing" full hollow. It is a different animal from my other full hollow razors. What I've found is that the TI prefers firmer pressure during initial stropping and then a few lighter strokes.


Scott

I like the fact you rning things like this to light. I also like one of the response by Tony about different beards requiring different razors. I can tell you in my very limited experience, the best blade for my beard is the Wade and Butcher full hollow grind 6/8. I recently sold one though I maintained 3 more because I like their shaves. I also found that I prefer round points to square so go figure? I also like the Dovo 5/8 round point I have that was bought from Classic shaving pre-honed. Now, I dont know who honed it, but I can tell you for my beard the Dovo can't touch the W&B and I believe it was honed well. I have found too that the wedge blades for me even after a great honing just don't work for me as well. So for all those who might throw rocks all I can say is this, MY EXPERIENCE IS LIMITED! So here are my opinions. First, it was great you brought this to light because when you pay the prices Classic Shaving charges they should get it right the first time regardless of who hones it. You don't owe them anything because you paid for the best and you should expect just that (thoughI have found them to be slightly more expensive, but they are the best I have found for products and selection!). Second, I like to hear things like this so that I can read and learn that in the event someone who buys from me is displeased I can know whether or no its my fault and I can refund their money. Finally, this is a forum and I have noticed that it seems there are some companies who are pushed on this web site. I use the site for razor use and restoration information, not to see tons of sale item from the same person in the classifieds nor to hear someone defend a companies product when it doesn't meet the expectation of the customer. If Classic Shaving doesnt want criticism or unhappy customers, then they should do satisfaction surveys after every rpoduct they sell, every time( they can certainly afford it)! People pay a lot for their products and they are a buissness, not a hobbyist like me who just enjoys spending his free time working on antiques and enjoying a great past time. So, I hope no person or Classic Shaving is upset. Anyone who tells me to shut up or be nicer, my response will be "Yes Sir" and I will be less truthful the next time I comment. So please note with thess opinions again MY EXPERIENCE IS VERY LIMITED!

As far as different grinds and razors for different beards most here know I'm on a crusade. And with all due respect to Tony I just can't agree. Most know what I'm going to say here but I'll say it again anyway so here goes.

if you went into a barber shop back in the 1940s or 50s when barbers did shaves as a regular daily activity and they were highly competent at it you would see a variety of razors being used however what you would see are 5/8s and 6/8s razors for the most part and they would be full to double hollows. maybe a few old timers who learned on wedges and part hollows used them because that is what they were comfortable with but for the most part that's the way it was.

So since barbers managed to give everyone who walked into the shop a superb shave with what they had no matter the beard type how was this possible if you must use the proper razor for the correct beard type?

In the end my view is if you like a certain style or grind over another that's one thing but if you buy a razor thinking you must use a certain grind or size there are issues in the mix here.

As far as your problems with the TI are you sure you didn't degrade the edge while stropping? In any case contact the vendor and resolve the issue. if you paid for honing then it should be shave ready. In general when doing honing and touchups TIs take a little more than Dovo's to hone up. maybe the lead hardening process affects it.

Treydampier,

I think the only concern with the original posting was that it is simply good manners to let a vendor know first and give them a chance to fix the problem before posting. No one is perfect and pieces slip through. Better to say my razor was dull and Classic stood up and made it right immediately, than to simply say it is dull and I don't know what to do. If any vendor fails to measure up contact them immediately.

But, that said many times it is not a vendor issue, simply different expectations and a poster simply wants to know if this is normal so he asks here first to gather a concensus before bothering the vendor which is what the post seemed like to me. I think the poster wanted to sort out whether this is a typical honing issue or a TI issue. No foul in my book.

In all likelyhood the razor was honed just fine but it is simply a different grind and behaves differently. Even if that does prove to be the fact I think Classic or any vendor would gladly let a buyer send it back and go over it again at no charge.

Those who have been here a while have seen posts from beginners, or relative beginners every week on a similr subject, ie...I just got a shave ready razor and it is not shave ready. Most times it is technique, but could be the razor every once in a while. So before chastizing the vendor we help a user through all the technique issues, one or two of the resident honemeisters or the vendor himself will often speak up offering to look it over again just in case. If the vendor truely did flub the job and refused to fix it, well, that news would spread here quickly. Again, a good example of the users here protecting the other users.

Tony

I haven't honed any TI's for Classic in a long time other than some LeGrelot's, but I'll be happy to rehone it for you in any case. TI's are a little different shaving for me as the tang tends to be longer and thinner feeling for and I keep a little thinner angle than with a Dovo.

Have fun.

Lynn

I didn't strop it before shaving, for that is what it said to do in the little paper included with the razor.
Stropping hasn't seemed to affect the Dovo negatively in any way, either.

In case it was unclear; I'm not inclined to believe someone who hones for a living let a dull razor pass through their hands, or made the factory-issued blade somehow worse. I was seeking other explanations for the shaving result.

Tony,
Thanks a lot for the reply. I may have gone too far but I am trying to always remain a gentleman as most men are on this site. So, if I offended anyone I truely apoogize. As you or others may know, when I started I sold some razors that were not shave ready as being such. I was wrong then. So what I did at the advice of Alex, was I went to Classic and bought a Dovo basic 5/8 round point with plastic handles shave ready. This was the razor I used as my standard for my restorations until I started using Wade and Butcher razors that I sharpened using advice from the WIKI. Now, if you note many of my restorations have hone wear, however, most of that was there when I got the razors from the flea market or ebay. I know they werprobably junk when I got them. But, my W&B that I love so much is from Ebay and it cleaned up perfect for me. I liked the Dovo, but I love my W&B more. IN this light though, I want to give full credit and thanks to Classic Shaving because they gave me what I paid for and met my expectations. I just tend to hold professional companies selling premium products to a much higher standard than I would someone who does this as a hobby. To the conerned user though, I can tell you Classic shaving and their hone person set the standard for what I consider shave ready in my restorations that I sell on SRP if I am not going to use them.
Thanks Again,

Bigspendur,

I'm not saying there is only one type of razor for each beard, just that people tend to find one that works well and may stay with it and switching to something different may be like starting over.

Remember the barbers of old probably performed more shaves in a day that we do in a week and may well have only used a single style razor, hence becoming experts at that one grind no matter the beard type. We shave once a day and many of us are switching razors right and left making each day a bit more of a learning curve. I tend to use heavy grinds quite often so find full hollows difficult. Had I started with a full hollow I may be finding heavier razors to be an issue instead!

Also don't rule out that the barbers may have choosen a different razor depending on the beard type too.

As for any razor being able to shave any beard, yes, I agree for the most part but technique, angle of attack, etc.... may need to vary. I probably didn;t explain myself that well in my post. Finding that one grind type may shave one better than another does not rule out your statement that a full hollow (or any grind for that matter) can easily shave any beard type.

Tony

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

if you went into a barber shop back in the 1940s or 50s when barbers did shaves as a regular daily activity and they were highly competent at it you would see a variety of razors being used however what you would see are 5/8s and 6/8s razors for the most part and they would be full to double hollows. maybe a few old timers who learned on wedges and part hollows used them because that is what they were comfortable with but for the most part that's the way it was.

So since barbers managed to give everyone who walked into the shop a superb shave with what they had no matter the beard type how was this possible if you must use the proper razor for the correct beard type?

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You're saying that every barber in the 50s could give every man a superb shave with any 5/8. I really doubt that. I cant even get a superb hair cut from most hairdressers or a superb meal from most restaurants. While I cant understand your nostalgia, and would like to see barber shops in town, I am sure that barbers were like any other profession: some good, some not so good, most average. Normal distribution.

What Tony said regarding razor weight

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

I find that whoever has honed the balde full singing razors just do not shave as well for me as heavier grinds. I have a fairly stiff beard and a heavy razor just sails right through while I feel a full hollow, singing typoe blade seems to catch and scrape for me.

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sounds much more likely IMHO.

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Originally Posted by treydampier

I just tend to hold professional companies selling premium products to a much higher standard than I would someone who does this as a hobby.

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That's fair enough, but when an ineperienced user buys a shave-ready razor and doesn't get the results he expects, it becomes awkward. If he names the place he bought from it can be seen as criticism (which he may not be qualified to give.) But if he withholds that info it makes it harder to give him good advice. Maybe the best balance is just to say "I bought a shave-ready razor from one of the suppliers recommended here on SRD." The name can always be dropped in later once more facts are known.

I, for example, bought a shave-ready razor after honing another one myself. (I didn't buy from one of the big names here.) I was hoping the shave-ready blade would be much better than the one I did myself, so I could learn what to aim for. I was a bit disappointed to find it was not significantly different to what I already had. The hone patterns were neater under a microscope, but shave quality was much the same. I wanted to post here asking for feedback, but I decided against it. I figured my own honing had reached a decent level even if it took me some time to get the results.

Maybe on these forums the benefits of a shave-ready blade are overstated slightly. As good as these honemeisters are, we shouldn't treat their work as magical. That is putting unfair pressure on them. At the end of the day all we should ask of them is to create a sharp edge on the blade, free of flaws. It isn't rocket surgery, as they say. It is great that these skilled people are here to do such a great job and show us what to aim for ourselves, but let's not get carried away as if blades they sharpen can scare whiskers off at a distance.

I find it really amazing that people can't seem to grasp the concept that in days or old barbers were highly skilled at giving shaves and people assume that only they can give themselves great shaves or that there must have been plenty of bad barbers. I grew up in NYC and back in the 1950s when I was growing up barbers probably did more shaves than haircuts yet no one says they can give themselves a better haircut than a barber can.

As far as some barbers being bad goes if you went to a shop to get a haircut and the barber did a poor job would you go back to him. The same with shaves. Most shops in those days served a pretty small community even in a big city and a poor shave or haircut meant a reputation at that shop. it would also translate to no customers and the shop or barber would be looking for another line of work.

Unlike the present day when people expect mediocrity in everything and seem surprised when something is done right the first time back then attitudes were different. It was expected that things were done right the first time and there was little toleration for shoddy workmanship or skill.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Unlike the present day when people expect mediocrity in everything and seem surprised when something is done right the first time back then attitudes were different. It was expected that things were done right the first time and there was little toleration for shoddy workmanship or skill.

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+1


Tony

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

As far as some barbers being bad goes if you went to a shop to get a haircut and the barber did a poor job would you go back to him. The same with shaves.

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I bet it's even more true with shaves. A bad haircut means you look a little goofy and maybe have to comb your hair a little different for a week until it grows some. A bad shave hurts!

When I got married we thought it would be fun for the wedding party to get shaved at a local barber. This turned out to be a horrible idea and was rather painful. To make matters worse, I still had stubble that would easily show up in pictures so I had to shave a second time, on skin that was already very unhappy. Quite obviously, I will never, ever go to that place for a shave again.

I'm gonna agree with the previous posters who emphasized technique. I was an SRP member for a few days before my first straight shave, and I heard all these posts about great, comfortable, smooth shaves. I posted a similar question about my DOVO from Classic, just to make sure that they were reputable with their sharpening services. Of course they are, but I just didn't believe that my razor was shave ready because my first few shaves were so poor, and even considered sending it to SRD for a honing. However, I decided that I should garner some more experience before sending it out. Good decision.

The thing to remember is the huge number of factors that can change a save other than the razor itself. As my technique has improved, so has my shave. As I've began using "superlather", my shave has improved. As my lather making skill has improved, so has my shave. As I experiment with other creams, I have found that some are slicker and more lubricating, and thus my shave has improved. As my stropping technique has improved, my shave has improved. Etcetra, etcetra.

Point is, now I'm sure that my DOVO arrived, and still is, shave ready. If you find that your TI is dragging a bit try stropping a little more. Or try a more lubricating cream or soap than you would ordinarily use. Or try a different preshave routine. Switching up these variables will change the shave, and may yeild better results.

Of course, as Tony Miller has said, it certainly could be the razor....

FWIW

You might try the arm hair test at this point since you already tried the shave test, See if the razor clips arm hair with little to no effort, if it does then re-strop it up and adjust your angle and technique...
I have seen many NOS razors that are singing hollows, with an instruction sheet that states point blank, to place the spine on the face and to shave with a very shallow angle and a very light touch.. That being said as a person who only uses full hollows I have found that using those instructions, works well, along with near perfect prep, it is not by coincidence that I only use Uberlather, it actually does work when using these singing blades...
Now if the razor will not clip arm hair than I would take Lynn up on his very generous offer to re-touch the edge for you...

Keep in mind that as Nelson said any sharp razor will shave, but when switching between grinds and sizes you have to also adjust your techninique, which I am quite sure the barbers of old did with an expert hand...

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I find it really amazing that people can't seem to grasp the concept that in days or old barbers were highly skilled at giving shaves and people assume that only they can give themselves great shaves or that there must have been plenty of bad barbers. I grew up in NYC and back in the 1950s when I was growing up barbers probably did more shaves than haircuts yet no one says they can give themselves a better haircut than a barber can.

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While I agree with you, just the end result was not everything to a barber shop shave. Yes, cuts or irritation or completely unshaved patches were unacceptable. Decent closeness was probably good enough. A major part of the barber shop shave is all the prep, relaxation, steamed towel, face massage, 5, 6, 10 step process, and finally, someone else cleans the sink and washes the towels.

Apparently the vendor's listing erroneously stated it was professionally-honed; they've offered to fix it at no charge, so all's well that ends well. Impressed with the service.

Pretty shocked expensive razors can arrive from manufacturers essentially entirely un-shave-ready, but perhaps they can't spend so much labor time on the honing part of the process.

Well then that's that! I wouldn't be too surprised, most of the manufacturers don't hone by hand...the razors leave the factory after being ground, and sharpened on a belt or wheel, but not hand honed, simply because of time and effort constraints. Let us know how it shaves once you get the razor back!

Keep us updated please.. it is important for us to hear how things go after you get it back to see what we can learn technique wise, and to contrast your experience of non shave ready vs shave ready on the TI singing blade.

You should be fine when you get it back. My first straight was a TI fresh from the factory. I learned to shave with it. Oh my it hurt. Couldn't believe it when I got my first shave ready vintage. So smooth. Three or four months later, got the TI up to speed and it's a great little shaver now. (Still prefer my vintages though.)

Update; I got the TI back from Lynn a week ago.

The TI's a fine little shaver. The scale pin's tension is noticeably better controlled than the non-singing stainless Dovo (that Lynn also honed, because I bonked it into the faucet). I love the sealed wood scale, which is much more refined than the Dovo-feels better in your hand the Dovo's 'dry' ebony.

After a half dozen or more shaves with the singing razor, I do notice its differences from the Dovo.

I've made an analogy that the straight's kind of like a dance partner; after awhile with it, you sense-from the razor's reactions-whether you should increase/decrease angle or pressure, if your skin wasn't wet enough or taut enough, etc. In 2.5 months on the straight, I feel like I've come to understand this "horse whispering" from blade to hand rather well.

In this sense, the TI's a superior communicator than non-singing Dovo. It requires a shallower incidence angle than the Dovo (to me, certainly <2 heel widths).

It is a more pliant blade, making it better than the Dovo at shaving the areas of my face of which I'm still not up to par with an experience bladesman (my chin, my neck immediately around my chin, above/aside the upper lips, and the neck/jawline on the non-dominant-eye side [left] of my face). It traces along those areas rather well. To be fair, in either event (Dovo or TI) the areas where I do a relatively poor job w/ straight vs double edge safeties is only going to meaningfully improve with experience, not with choosing one straight over another. I used to have similar problems with the straights on the dominant eye side of my face along the jawline and the neck area near my earlobe, and I've overcome that.

On my cheeks and most of my neck, I get a more comfortable and ultimately superior shave with the straight than the Merkur/Gillette DEs. I have faith, for now, that I'll one day be able to say the same for my whole face.

I don't nick myself with either blade now. To be frank, I find with the straight that the most difficult part is getting a good look @ what you're about to do-it'd be so much simpler if I could view myself from outside my body, without my darn hand holding the blade getting in the way of my eyes!

Thanks for following up, that is a helpful review of your experiences

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Originally Posted by kwigibocity

I don't nick myself with either blade now. To be frank, I find with the straight that the most difficult part is getting a good look @ what you're about to do-it'd be so much simpler if I could view myself from outside my body, without my darn hand holding the blade getting in the way of my eyes!

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Congrats. Getting a feel for the feedback makes a huge difference. As for sight challenges, try looking sideways though progressive eyeglasses :D

I don't think some of you realize that honing is not an exact science or that what is sharp for one person may or may not be usable for another. Classic Shaving'r razors used to be honed by Lynn. I don't know if he is still doing their honing or not; however, whomever it was that did it I am sure it can be honed again if you ask Classic Shaving. It is amazing how close a razor can sometimes be to the "ultimate shaver" and still not be fine tuned for your particular beard type. Please give them a chance to make it right.