Celluloid Rot?

Hi

I think I've just been stitched?

Bought this Case Temperite off fleabay
This is a pic of how it was originally
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Looked really nice, even when it arrived.

Excessive dirt in the scales, so put it in a sonic jewelery cleaner for 3 mins with just hand warm water and it came out covered in rust and I have seen some pics of Celluloid rot, and I may be wrong but it looks similar to me!

This is how it is now
Pic1
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Pic2
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any advice on this one?
Why has it gone like this?
Was it some clever cover up job?

thanks for looking!

To be honest from the photos I can't tell what you are talking about. :shrug: Anytime I have had grungy celluloid scales I have always soaked the scales in Scrubbing Bubbles and scrubbed with a toothbrush and a Q-Tip without removing the blade. I have yet to find one that didn't clean up although sometimes the scales had some stains. :gl:

I have had to get rid of 3 sets of scales with celluloid rot. I would clean and polish the blade, then the next day or the day after there would be rust along where the scales lay next to the blade. There was also a strange odor. I immediately removed and discarded the scales, cleaned and saved the blades. No further rust appeared. Celluloid rot is contagious, so if you are not sure, quarantine that razor in a separate container from any other celluloid scaled razors, until you are sure. Hope it is not the case!

The marks look like finger marks to me - patterned staining like that is usually associated with patterned celluloid scales, yours are clear. What a shame - it looked lovely before you 'cleaned' it! Now the blade needs buffing again. If it was shave-ready, it will also need honing after buffing.

Regards,
Neil.

I have cleaned all my 2nd hand razors in the same way and this has never happened before.

how can I confirm if it is rot or not?

should I just buff the blade again and see if it returns?

The smell released by the out-gassing of the scales is usually the biggest giveaway (apart from the rusty blade!) - vinegary, usually a lot of crazing and/or frosting in the surface of the scales (not always apparent). The rate of breakdown in the celluloid depends on the fillers that were used, UV light exposure and a few other factors. Darker handles = more filler = less breakdown due to the masking effect.

What I find peculiar is that the razor must have been photographed by the seller before listing it, the listing was live for some time, and the razor spent some time in the post - all without developing the appearance that 3 mins in your cleaning tank has produced.

Keep it away from the rest of your collection - quarantine it! - it is contagious and will spread to other celluloid scales.

More info here.

Regards,
Neil

I posted this on a similar thread recently, & it seems useful again here.
This is Bill Ellis' info on celluloid rot.
Bill's Straight Razor Info: Celluloid Rot
It doesn't look the same as the rust on your blade. He mentions that it's usually the darker scales that suffer. Wrong way round, as Neil pointed out.It's the lighter ones!I've found before that a freshly sanded blade can sometimes attract rust similar to that. Maybe it's due to microscopic metal slurry still present. Try cleaning it up with an oil after you have had another go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ben.mid

I posted this on a similar thread recently, & it seems useful again here.
This is Bill Ellis' info on celluloid rot.
Bill's Straight Razor Info: Celluloid Rot
It doesn't look the same as the rust on your blade. He mentions that it's usually the darker scales that suffer.
I've found before that a freshly sanded blade can sometimes attract rust similar to that. Maybe it's due to microscopic metal slurry still present. Try cleaning it up with an oil after you have had another go.

---

This is actually what he says Ben:

"...I have noticed a couple of things. Black scales don't seem to ever get celluloid rot, and the ones that get it the most are the semi-transparent amber and orange colors..."

in other words the dark scales suffer less, if at all.

Regards,
Neil

Ha! I didn't re-read it & that's how i remembered it. Completely the wrong way round. I can see how that might be a little misleading. :fim:
Cheers Neil

I'm a newb but to me the later pics the blade looks tarnished, are you wiping the blade dry consistently or taking it out of the bathroom during hot showers so condensation doesn't form? If your doing all that, then it could be some rot of some sort as the celluiod looks a little discolored. It's oxidizing if I'm right, basically hence the yellowing is from the acid produced during that process. Correct me if I'm wrong guys.

Curiously Arcylic does the same thing if its not pure Acrylite basically has to be high end acrylic.

I know when I work with Acrylic for my aquairums its integral to have good high quality acrylic as its exposed to salt water constantly.

sorry to trail off.

cheers
D

I've polished it up tonight with paste and it looks nice again.
washed it and dried fully.
I'll leave it a while and see what happens to the blade.

There are some markings on the scales, that doesn't show well in the photos, what I can only describe looks like white mould.

yeah check it and see if it'll get rusty again. if it does i'd say it's the rot and you've got to throw the scales away. how long till it got the rust the first time around?
as to whether the seller knew about it and intentionally didn't disclose it, i guess we're not in a position to tell.

It was really strange,
I put it in warm water in the sonic cleaner and within 3 minutes of it being in there it was a mess!
I didn't believe it when I first saw it! Never seen anything like it.

I can see where you're coming from, by pictures 1204/1205.

But if you put the razor in the sonic cleaner while closed, couldn't it be that rust started forming all over the blade and the exposed parts were kept rust-free by the ultrasonic action? The scales would block the ultrasonic waves allowing rust to build up near the edge, mimicking the effect of celluloid rot.

That doesn't look like celluloid rot to me. usually the rust is only where it folds into the scale. Also it takes many days before you start to get even the slightest rust marks and thats where the rot is severe. depending on what was used for detergent in the ultrasonic that could cause some type of reaction with the celluloid.

I agree quarantine the razor and give a few days, maybe even a week or two but check the blade every day. Celluloid rot is funny. Sometimes its a tiny part of the scale that starts to go and it doesn't always spread to other parts of the scale but will rust and pit a small part of the blade. Then it seems to spread on the blade from the initial corrosion.

Pics are always a tuff call, but from what I see that doesn't look like cell rot... nor the rust from cell rot....

When you said white moldy looking stuff that worried me but there should be visible break down in the actual fibers of the scales by that point, and a distinct smell, like sweet rotten vinegar...
The real problem with cell rot is it doesn't follow any set rules...
other then, if you suspect it, keep that razor away from your others...

thanks for all your advice, I'll monitor the razor and see if anything develops!

thanks
Paul

I had an experience with cell rot where signs of tarnish formed within days of cleanup... even thru a coat of oil.
I'm talking 3 or 4 days. My scales were black had no crazing or frosting and no camphor odor. Go figure.

As Neil said its peculiar yours was ok prior to "cleaning"
Un pin the blade and run the cleaner again. See if it rusts.

The "white mold" on the scales is not a good sign tho.

There are three main types of celluloid - the two most prevalent as handle materials are celluloid nitrate (a very early form) and celluloid acetate. The former leeches out nitric acid, the latter acetic acid. Both are formed from guncotton, nitric acid, sulphuric acid and camphor. Dark varieties have fillers, clear ones do not.

The ntrate form has been noted as turning fingers white during handling, but is not as common as the the acetate variety, as it was lobbied against in the early 1900s when movie stock from it began to deteriorate.

Moisture is a known catalyst in cases of celluloid rot, especially of the initrate type. It is a possibility that the agitation effect of a sonic cleaner spreads the acid that causes the rusting, so that it is not confined to that part of the blade which is normally covered by the handle. If you must clean possible celluloid handles by this method, it might be prudent in the future to netralise any possible acid contamination by adding baking soda to the wash water.

In defence of the seller, any (in fact, every) celluloid handle is capable of spontaneous breakdown. US celluloid handles are rare post 1950s, but german made ones still appear many decades later. There are pre-1950 handles that have not deteriorated, but that is not to say that they will not - the capability is there. The fault is in the method of manufacture of the material, not some sort of "con" or "cover-up" by someone who sold the razor decades later and who never suspected that this might happen.

The way celluloid degrades is complex and varied. Some turn crystalline, some split and crack, some smell of vinegar, some have no apparent smell, some explode, some turn powdery and some exude a fine nitrate deposit. In all cases camphor is expelled from the matrix.

The external environment hastens the effect, moisture in particular. Water is a necessary ingredient for most of the reactions that break down celluloid - it attracts moisture, and moisture acts as a catalyst (ie hastens/accelerates) the reactions.

Having said all that, it still doesn't look like cell rot to me - the marks definitely look like fingerprints where the blade has been handled, with some small rust spots here and there.

Regards,
Neil

PS: great control experiment Oz! If the blade sans handle still rusts in the sonic cleaner, that would remove all doubt of cell rot.