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I need some advice before I commit to a damascus blade: I always thought carbon steel was the best material for blades, but I see some high quality damascus blades in stainless. What are the advantages/disadvantages to carbon vs stainless for damascus blades?
Thanks!
Never seen a stainless damascus blade. That's got to be silly money. Got a link?
I just don't understand these kinds of comments, particularly if you have never seen one!Quote:
Originally Posted by ben.mid
Lynn
I was going to comment on the benefit of damascus being mainly aesthetic, then i saw he was talking about stainless damascus. I know you can get knives with it, but never heard of a razor. I did a search on the web prior to posting. I'm interested in seeing what he's seen but can't find an example. Apologies for a wasted postQuote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I really think this boils down to who is making the razor. There are great carbon Damascus razor makers out there like Zowada, Silvano, Bergamo and I believe folks like Mike Blue etc. Mastro Livi also uses a Stainless for some of his Damascus. I am very careful with regard to rust on my carbon Damascus blades and keep a layer of Camellia Oil on them all the time particularly with my Zowada's because the etching is deep. I have not found this to be a problem with the stainless damascus. The main thing I look at on either is the Damascus pattern in the blade. I have found that the more horizontal the pattern, particularly around the edge, the better it takes an edge and keeps it. If the striations are perpendicular, I have seen the edge look more like a steak knife (microscopically).
Because of the ones I've seen that all seem to be hardened at 60 Rockwell or better, I personally have found them to be comparable from a shaving and honing standpoint.
Look and feel also play a big part here, so personal preference should also be considered.
If you have a technical type question, there are some top notch guys in the forum that should be able to help you out.
Have fun,
Lynn
I'm moving this to the razors forum, as it's not really a site question.
dw
Damascus just refers to the process used in making the razor; for more info, google "mokume gane". It's a Japanese technique of fusing two metals to produce a harder alloy with a wood-grain pattern.
I wouldn't buy a stainless Damascus, as I'm not sure what the other metal is! I'm also not sure I would get it unless the second metal were precious. Carbon steel + silver makes a worthwhile purchase, stainless + carbon seems like the metalsmith is just cheating so they can include less carbon steel, which is more expensive.
That's just my opinion.
Here's some more thoughts to help refine your question.
Carbon pattern welded steel will rust. Generally a cutting blade will be a mix of one or more steels that would work as cutting tools individually. But, some mixtures are of a good steel and not so good steel for cutting. The contrast is generally between one carbon steel and a steel that contains chromium or nickel.
Tradition dictates that carbon steel blades hold an edge better. In razors out on that thin edge, for the same hardness, neither material has an advantage unless additional heat treatment processes come in to play. The advantage remains in the carbon corner there.
Stainless pattern welded steel will rust, but you really have to abuse it and most people don't. Generally a cutting blade will be two steels of slightly different alloy characteristics to show contrast. Some mixtures are of a good steel and not so good steel for cutting. Devin Thomas and Mike Norris make the most available materials in the US. There is a European manufacturer of some very good quality sintered powder metal called Damasteel. I have blades made of that and they are very good cutting steels indeed.
Several smiths I know have laminated stainless steels to the outside of an inner core of plain old carbon steel. This technique bridges the best of both worlds because the carbon, except at the exposed edge, is protected by the slabs of stainless. This kind of material is found in high grade sushi knives by way of example. Hitachi Metals makes this stuff by the tonne.
Some older stainless steels have a break point where getting it hard enough to maintain a sharp edge means brittleness and chipping risk. Or, you heat treat for toughness and it will be very tough but will not stay sharp. Some of the newer stain resistant steels are as good or better than carbon steels in performance terms. S30V comes to mind. The Stainless CPM steels are all very good. The downside is that it is difficult to sharpen.
I buy 1095, a plain carbon steel, at .50 per pound. ATS 34 is about 15.00 per pound.
Mokume means wood grain. It can refer to the pattern seen on steel nihonto, but it is also an art technique for fusing together non ferrous metals. In the context of this thread, it was the grain pattern referred to, not the non ferrous materials. Context is important.
There is a bladesmith in the UK who has fused steel with silver in the mokume gane stylee. Beautiful work too. Sadly, despite all manner of heat treatment, the silver will never be hard and that depreciates the cutting ability. She did work out how to get the steel to come out on the edge of the blade and that solved the problem. The trick is using a steel that will get hot enough to form a martensite phase and not exceed the melting point of silver during the heat treatment.
As long as the alloys contribute good performance potential to the blade, the heat treatment is done correctly to get the most out of the materials, the edge geometry is correct, the blade (of either carbon or stainless pattern welded steels) should perform at least as well as a monosteel blade of either of the components of the mixture. The rest is the aesthetic difference seen on the blade surface.
Either choice, my recommendation is to be an educated buyer.
Good question.
Better than I could have said it!
You are probably looking at laminated stainless. It has a damasks like look. Some knives use it. Never tried it.
My Livi Damascus is stainless -- the mix is 440 and ATS34. It shaves like a beauty -- very smooth, not too hard to hone, takes a great edge, which lasts longer than my CS blades. It's a great shave and despite the less than favourable remarks I've seen on here in the past about 440 etc., I'd buy another in a flash.
Oh, and Ben. My signoff is a picture of said blade. So now you've seen one! ;)
Cheers Mark! I followed Jimmy's link to Lynn & Don's & saw them there too. That's a great pattern you have on your's.