Dating razors: British Hallmarks & sovereigns

Investigating around my razors, I gathered some infos regarding british hallmarks, traditionally used by silversmiths. I realised that some hallmarks were also used by straight razors manufacturers:

Crown [City mark] = Sheffield (from 1733 to present)
Anchor [city mark] = Birmingham (from 1733 to present)

One more find (not strictly connected with silver hallmarks):

WR [sovereign's Duty Mark] = William IV (1820-1837)
VR [sovereign's Duty Mark] = Victoria (1837-1901)

Some examples (Wade&Butcher's in my gallery):

Pic.A (razor #11): [crown] + WR; very precise dating! The ebay seller of this razor published a pic in SRP some days before the auction asking info about the dating. Members agreed that it should be quite old (..the rust on the blade was supporting this opinion..).

Pic.B (razors #55-57): [crown] + V R;

Pic.C (razor #25): [anchor]; the anchor is sometimes used by Wade&Butcher but I don't know if this implies a relationship with the city of Birmingham; I couldn't find infos at this regard. "Sheffield" is absent in the mark on the tang, but this is quite common between W&B razors (very frequent among W&B "barber's use" blades). It happens that the anchor is also part of the emblem of Solingen.. eheh!

EDIT: Join "Those damned collectors" social group! :D

When I saw the title Dating Razors I thought "That dude really likes his razors. I just shave with mine":)

Me too! I really enjoy honing and shaving with mine! ..OK, not with the rusted one!

Different sovereign's duty marks among your blades? Before William IV, only Georges (from 1714 to 1830: George I, II, III, IV).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CraigJ

When I saw the title Dating Razors I thought "That dude really likes his razors. I just shave with mine":)

---

:roflmao Same here! Got me curious!

..you, guys.. :rant:

eheheh!

Success! :y I found the missing element: the sovereign's mark GR, indicating George IV, 1820-1830. Even better: it comes from a Wade&Butcher razor (in not very good conditions..). Also, note that there is an error in the first post of this thread: William IV was king between 1830 and 1837.

Attachment 25365

Now it could be interesting to give a look to the change of tastes between 1820's and 1850's. Look at the tails of three different W&B's: GR (1820, 1830), WR (1830-1837), VR (1837-1901).

Attachment 25366

William IV ruled from 1830-1837. A W<crown>R can narrow the age of a razor down to a seven year period - this is the best anyone can do. I have only seen one razor of the G<crown>R variety that was obviously old enough to be George the third. Anything other than a V<crown>R is very rare.

John

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clavichord

Investigating around my razors, I gathered some infos regarding british hallmarks, traditionally used by silversmiths. I realised that some hallmarks were also used by straight razors manufacturers:

Crown [City mark] = Sheffield (from 1733 to present)
Anchor [city mark] = Birmingham (from 1733 to present)

One more find (not strictly connected with silver hallmarks):

WR [sovereign's Duty Mark] = William IV (1820-1837)
VR [sovereign's Duty Mark] = Victoria (1837-1901)

Some examples (Wade&Butcher's in my gallery):

Pic.A (razor #11): [crown] + WR; very precise dating! The ebay seller of this razor published a pic in SRP some days before the auction asking info about the dating. Members agreed that it should be quite old (..the rust on the blade was supporting this opinion..).

Pic.B (razors #55-57): [crown] + V R;

Pic.C (razor #25): [anchor]; the anchor is sometimes used by Wade&Butcher but I don't know if this implies a relationship with the city of Birmingham; I couldn't find infos at this regard. "Sheffield" is absent in the mark on the tang, but this is quite common between W&B razors (very frequent among W&B "barber's use" blades). It happens that the anchor is also part of the emblem of Solingen.. eheh!

EDIT: Join "Those damned collectors" social group! :D

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Crowley

William IV ruled from 1830-1837. A W<crown>R can narrow the age of a razor down to a seven year period - this is the best anyone can do. John

---

Well, isn't that the same I wrote (grammar mistakes apart :p)?

The GR is #64 of my gallery, WR is #11, VR is #55. Sorry, but pics were taken before cleaning the blades.

The English are meticulous when it comes to documenting things. I have some old English Pocketwatches from the 1700s with Sterling cases and they have a variety of hallmarks on them. They usually identify the assay content, the makers mark, the company mark, the city where manufactured and often times the guild.

[QUOTE=0livia;374971]:roflmao Same here! Got me curious![/]

I had the exact same thought. I don't think my wife woud mind too much either as long as I spent less time honing them. :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clavichord

Success! :y I found the missing element: the sovereign's mark GR, indicating George IV, 1820-1830. Even better: it comes from a Wade&Butcher razor (in not very good conditions..). Also, note that there is an error in the first post of this thread: William IV was king between 1830 and 1837.

Attachment 25365

Now it could be interesting to give a look to the change of tastes between 1820's and 1850's. Look at the tails of three different W&B's: GR (1820, 1830), WR (1830-1837), VR (1837-1901).

Attachment 25366

---

Your years were about ten off. William IV ruled from 1830-1837, only seven years.

Why is it that only SOME razors have hallmarks & dutymarks? And some makers mark some razors but not all (ie - ive a Joseph Elliot with VR stamp, but have seen heaps of others without)?

Interesting to know (yes, interesting! source):

Interestingly the Sheffield [crown] & Birmingham [anchor] hallmarks were derived from their partitioning for respective assay offices after they were ommitted by accident from official documents. They used to meet at a pub called the crown & anchor during this time.

Silver hallmarks were originally introduced in 1300 by a Statute of Edward I, which became necessary because precious metals are not used in their pure form, but rather have other metals added to them. [...] Duty marks were added in 1784 as a tax to pay for the war with America. The tax lasted until 1890!

Please remember that the above notes refers to silver hallmarks. However it seems to me that razor manufacturers, sometimes working with silver too (manufacturing forks, knives, etc.), borrowed some elements from this practice.

I've got two Marshes & Shepherd razors with "WR" stamped -- This info in this thread is great! Heres a pic of a nice clear WR on one of them!

@ Undream: thanks! You can find something more about Marshes and Shepherd here.

@ John Crowley: I corrected the error (and added more info) one post before yours. :D

For my two-penn'orth - hallmarks are ONLY used on silver and gold, NEVER on steel or other metals and a full hallmark consists of four individual marks that form the whole thing.

I have some GR, WR and VR razors but here's a thing - most makers who held Royal Appointments (I.e. Rodgers) of course made the most of it and a dating tip is that if it says 'Cutlers to their Majesties' it was certainly Victorian and very likely predates the death of Prince Albert - the firms dropped the word 'their' sometime after and in fact I have NEVER seen one struck 'cutlers to HER majesty' (i.e. Victoria) - you have to remember that Victoria was by far the most powerful figure in the World at that time and they didn't dare risk offending her as suggesting she may have had need for a razor would have been considered extremely vulgar! They started putting 'cutlers to His Majesty' on post-1901 as the new King was then of course Edward, but the practice of striking the tang 'GR' 'WR' etc had by then been dropped.

Just Joseph Rodgers made razors 1837-1901 with stamps:
"Rodgers Cutlers to Her Majesty Patent"
"Joseph Rodgers & Sons to Her Majesty Patent"
"Rodgers Cutlers to Her Majesty No 6 Norfolk St."
"Rodgers Cutlers to Her Majesty" - 1837-1890.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by manah

Just Joseph Rodgers made razors 1837-1901 with stamps:
"Rodgers Cutlers to Her Majesty Patent"
"Joseph Rodgers & Sons to Her Majesty Patent"
"Rodgers Cutlers to Her Majesty No 6 Norfolk St."
"Rodgers Cutlers to Her Majesty" - 1837-1890.

---

Thanks!

Do you have a photo example?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clavichord

Interesting to know (yes, interesting! source) [..]

Please remember that the above notes refers to silver hallmarks [..]

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blueprinciple

For my two-penn'orth - hallmarks are ONLY used on silver and gold, NEVER on steel or other metals and a full hallmark consists of four individual marks that form the whole thing.

---

Hallmarks formed by four different parts is not a rule (as you can read here and here). A complete hallmarks series if formed by 4 or even 5 marks, but objects with less hallmarks are quite common. The fact that this sytem was not conceived for steel is also reported above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Thanks!
Do you have a photo example?

---

No, I did not see such razor . Though I read about it in many sources. But saw penknife.
Penknives are not strongly necessary to the queen too.=)

Today I read more carefully the article by Lummus (1922) and found this:

About that time [1821] arose the practices of scoring the top and bottom of the tang with file-cuts or flutings to keep the fingers from slipping, and of stamping the initial of the sovereign (GR, which became WR on the accession of William IV in 1830, and VR when the reign of Queen Victoria began in 1837). :shrug:

I just finished restoring this blade. Got it as part of a 4 blade lot for $15 shipped...

Nice job! I have only had one GR razor - they are pretty rare. Many are that old but the GR wasn't put on many of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Crowley

Nice job! I have only had one GR razor - they are pretty rare. Many are that old but the GR wasn't put on many of them.

---

If i had realized what i had in my hands before i took it apart and did the needful... I probably would have been to scared ****less :)

Luckily brad(undream) sent me a link to this thread before I made the mistake of throwing this on ebay.

Judging by stamp G(crown)R it's 1910 - 1936 (George V).

G(crown)R were different.
1820-1830 (George IV)
1910-1936 (George V).

Thanks Manah.

Which documents are you guys looking at for stamp dates on various razors?

There are different books and documents, I already wrote about books somewhere at the forum. But in this case all is simple.
G(crown)R - king George IV or V, not earlier.
This razor hollow ground, such razors have started to let out approximately in 1870. So remains only George V - 1910-1936.

Here a Rodgers marked GR (for sure 1820-1830). I can't understand if the razor posted by Slartibartfast was made during the XX c. (..I'm quite disappointed..:rant:). The tail seems to suggest a different age and the blade could be a regrind; the razor looks handsanded and this doesn't help with datation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clavichord

Here a Rodgers marked GR (for sure 1820-1830). I can't understand if the razor posted by Slartibartfast was made during the XX c. (..I'm quite disappointed..:rant:). The tail seems to suggests a different age and the blade could be a regrind; the razor looks handsanded and this doen't help with datation.

---

This is what it looked like before i cleaned it up, if it helps....

The razor does have jimps, top and bottom.

Browse Photos photo

It looks definitely (to me :D ) an 1820-1830 razor (most probably reground).
EDIT: thanks for providing additional pics!
EDIT2: that kind of "big" lower jimps is really frequent on 1820-1830 blades.

clavichord, May be, you are right. But wherefore did somebody make reground?
Rodgers WR(1830-1837).

Thanks Manah/clavichord.

Nice to finally get a score and not a dud from the 'bay:)

Thanks, manah and Slartibartfast, for the links. Discussions like this one (all GR/WR and Rodgers blades!) are really useful to uderstand the evolution of shapes and tastes [this is what I mean, saying that connection between info is more important than the info]. Maybe this part of the discussion should be separed from the first one to make easier to find it.

Thanks you, for interesting discussion. In such conversations the true is born.=))

In my search on Hallmarks I found The Ken Hawley Collection Trust which is part of the University of Sheffield. In the trust they have 10 "Open Razors" which they date and describe at length.

https://www.shef.ac.uk/hawley/collec...zor-intro.html

In one description the WR mark is described: (I italicized and bolded the text.)

DATE - Joseph Rodgers and Sons were at No 6 Norfolk Street from the early years of the 19th century until the mid-20th century. WR is William Rex, William IV, 1830-1837

William Rex. Now I understand the R.