This question just bothers me . Does anyone knows answer? i include keen cutter picture.
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This question just bothers me . Does anyone knows answer? i include keen cutter picture.
I give up!
What's the belly? :shrug:
check the picture or click this
How-To and Why -
second picture
I wonder if it had to do with the size of grinding wheels. Larger wheels would be needed for larger full hollows, but larger wheels tend to leave heavier grinds (half/quarter hollow). I could be way off, that's just my intuitive guess.
Or maybe something to do with not wanting to grind off large surfaces of a very hollow (not as strong and more flexible) blade. Heat or frailty issues maybe?
I don't think there is a purpose. I think it is the naturally created protrusion when you grind out the razor.
You want the belly though, as that is the bevel.
That is my guess
Hmmmm...interesting. Well, since not all razors have them, isn't it probably just a design thing?
As I understand it, this was left by some manufacturers to reinforce the bevel, thereby giving you the flexibility and ease of honing of a hollowed blade, but the longer-lasting edge of a stiffer blade.
I should say that particular blade made 1903 so far i had may be 5-9 similar razor ' s and they all been made early 1900 or late 1800.
Maybe we're talking different things. I've never seen a razor without a belly. On the other hand I've never seen a belly as big as the one on the pic that Sham posted.
I think it is just a different type of grind. It is new to my eyes and it must not be all that common and it makes a nice variant in your collection. If I had to categorize it, With the bevel being that large it would have some characteristics of a wedge hollowed part would functionally only serve as to lighten the weight of the blade. Very curious.
Mike
Such type of grind meets not too seldom.
Everyone of my Solingen Hollows have some form of belly... you can see it in the refelction. I bet its to stiffen the steel
Hi Alex,
Can you comment on this style grind? Doesit have the edge stability of a wedge etc? This looks very curious, then you know what happens after curiosity.:)
Mike
yepersQuote:
Originally Posted by BKratchmer
for that extra hollow if you ran a blad that thickness over the whole hollow(no belly) it woudl be like tringto shave with foil
way too much flex
i made one that was not good for shaving as the flat before the edge was .004 over about 3/8 of the blade height too much flex to get any work done
a stiffer edge would have worked fine but would stil have that nice flex
My opinion, this hollow was made to give flexibility to an edge . It is well felt on wedge blade (Turner razor).
I consider this grind different from a bellied hollow. The belly of a hollow grind is a "stabilizing piece", like the "double shoulder" but horizontal. The grind posted here is a sort of "modified wedge", modified to give more flexibility and maybe a particular appeal. Just my reading of it.
This is a full hollow blade ground from a wedge blade blank. With modern razors the grind of the blade is determined by the forging of the intended grind into a die set spacifically made for that grind. When done this way the blank looks remarkably like a straight razor and the finish grind is all they have to do. Several companies opted to stay with a more traditional method and just hollow out a strip extending from the shoulder down anywhere from 50% to 85% of the blade width. If they grind deep and only use a set of wheels large enouth for about 50% of the width of the blank it looks exagerated like this. They do this with a small double wheel setup after the basic grind is done on the blade blank. There were a few companies that made their hollow ground razors like this presumably to make the edge stiffer.
I'm going to suggest a few thoughts on this matter for others to 'digest' and comment upon if they like.
I will start by indicating the obvious. A razor is just another tool. Tools are given different form(s) to match their function. Witness the different forms of the following: scissors, garden pruners, axes, adzes knives, swords, scalpels, arrowheads, woodworking tools and so forth. You will not find a slavish adherence to a straight form when a curved one will serve better for whatever reason.
If you go back far enough in time, razors had very rounded blades. This was never a problem, neither to use, nor to keep sharp. But mankind was a bit more casual about the tolerances back then. From what I read on the razor forums, one would think that most of the modern straight razor users are totally paniced by a hones that are not flat to within a tenth of a millimeter. Likewise the fearful attitude about curved edges and how to sharpen them correctly. I come from a woodworker's background and I do not find the same 'fear' of curved edges in that community. Those of you who are into knifemaking will also find absolutely no panic concerning either the sharpening or usage of curved edges in that group. So why in the straight razor commmunity?
Do, please, cast your mind(s) back to the time before the existance of safety razor with disposable (or exchangeable) blades. the straight razor was used for everything. When I employ the word 'everything' I am referring not only to shaving of the face, but also various other parts of the body, be it for cosmetic or medical uses.
The tendency towards totally straight edges on straight razors seems to have accelerated with the coming of mass production methods. We can especially thank King Camp Gillette for some of this, but even decades before then, with the introduction of 'safety razors' with removable or replaceable blades, the big tendency was to making straight edges. From a production point of view there is much to recommend this. Now, in a blade of short length (as in a safety razor), this is not such a bad compromise. Once the blade is longer, however, a totally straight blade in not necessarily the best form to use.
Now a curved blade has much to recommend it when used for shaving the face (under the chin, etc), but really comes into its own when one has to deal with other parts of the body. I'm going to present myself as a good example of this. I had a rash on my chest last year that required that I shave the hair along my sternum during the course of my treatment. For that task, nothing was better than my old Jaques LeCoultre Frameback, a razor with a most pronounced belly on its blade. That deeply-curved blade could reach down to 'scoop out' the hair within the hollow of the sternum without any trouble. I tried that same thing once with a flatter straight razor. It did not do the job at all well and I ended up nicking myself in the bargain. Even twin-blade disposables with their short blades did not reach down into that area as well as the old, curved frameback.
Now to be fair, there is also nothing inherently wrong with a staight razor having a totally flat blade edge, but there also isn't anything totally 'right' about it, either.
As a final observation, I note that hollow grinding a razor with a curved edge is fairly simple with either (A) a slow moving wet grindstone or (B) the double-wheel grinder developed expressly for that purpose in the industry. Once you move to flat sanding belts or surface grinders it becomes much more attractive to adopt a flat blade profile, simply to fit the production process to the limitations of the machine(s).
OK, I'm talked out.
- Ignatz
second blade doesn't have Belly . diamond edgeQuote:
Originally Posted by manah
this is the clear picture of the belly.
Picture from classicshaving .com
I think the advocates for added stiffness must be right. I recall reading on the forums that a full hollow would flex on a shavers cheek and I found that hard to believe until I shaved with some large flexy full hollows. They definitely do flex and that belly probably keeps them from being like Butch said, shaving with a piece of tin foil.
What John pointed out about the dies and the double wheel can be seen in the videos of TI and either Boker or maybe it is Dovo making razors.
hi_bud_gl , I do not think, that it is resembling picture. Your razor does not correspond to this picture too. It is picture of one of standard kinds of grinding: bellied hollow. Razors in this theme have not standard grind. IMHO.
So sorry, :banghead: Me so stupid! I was under the impression that you were using the word 'belly' to refer to the curving 'smile' of the blade.
Although it doesn't have the same form, the ground-in thickened 'belly' of the blade serves the same purpose as a T-form structural reinforcement. It stiffens the blade without significantly adding to its weight. Actually, both blades have the 'belly', except that on the one it is very pronounced and the on the other it is a mere ground-in thickening.
This is the best photo I have on hand which shows what I have always thought the belly is:
Attachment 28412
Here's another poor photo
Attachment 28419
Sure there are razors that don't have a belly. They're less common but correct me if I'm wrong, they're known as single concave grinds. I have some of them. When the face of a blade that has a belly is viewed and tilted in the light, the band of light starts from the spine moving down toward the edge, then another band of light originating at the edge and moving up toward the spine meets the first band of light at the belly. The bands of light converge at the belly.
In a single concave grind, there is no second band of light originating from the edge and moving upward. You can follow that first band of light all the way down to the edge.
The belly is the result of the razor maker using a smaller diameter grinding wheel at the edge area than the larger diameter wheel used to grind out the main hollow of the blade.
Butch knows better than most since he grinds blades, but it makes perfect sense to me that if one were to use a single grinding wheel AND try to get a blade as thin as you'd find on an extra hollow razor, your edge and bevel area would be too thin.
Chris L
Manah i am having problems to understand what are you saying?Quote:
Originally Posted by manah
As i said early message your diamond edge blade doesn't have belly(JOSEPH RODGERS&SONS CUTLERS THEIR MAJESTIES N 96 NORFOLKS STREET SHEFFIELD). Happens to be right now i have exact blade which you have posted picture second picture on your early post. That blade is near wedge blade without any belly. The razor i have posted does have belly. i don't have a great camera to take picture of the blade which i can show belly in front(face) pf the blade. i did take 2 pictures 1 st is your diamond edge blade second is picture of simmons hardware co special #8.i hope this clear things up.
IF ANYONE knows how i can take better picture of the face to show belly i would appreciate
Do you see now?
And it is Thomas Turner.
I spoke about picture from classicshaving .com, that you have posted.
This blade does have belly and interesting it is a wedge blade . I post that picture from classified to clear things up for people to understand what i was talking about.
I agree. Same reason we build with I beams. Stress (and thereby displacement) varies by an exponent of 2 or 3 with distance, while moment of inertia by an exponent of one more. So in theory, having two stiff parts as far apart as possible is the most efficient way to get stiffness... hence we build with I beams.Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatz
