How important is prep in extending edge integrity?

Mark aka JMS started a great thread asking for opinion on how important linen is to extending the life of razor edges vs. using a plain leather strop.

That got me thinking about edge integrity, how long edges last between honings, touch ups, etc.

Here's my question I'm hoping to get feedback on from experienced shavers:

How important is "proper" shave prep (whisker softening) to the integrity and duration of a razor's edge?

I ask this question because there are a few things that have been on my mind, I'd say eating at me, after Mark's thread:

For those that can shave for months and months and months on a honed edge stropping only on plain leather, would those razors still shave that long if you either didn't prep sufficiently, or even, didn't prep at all (quick face wash, lather immediately and boom, start shaving with dry hard whiskers)? Regardless of prep or lack thereof, do your razors still whisk off unsoftened whiskers month in month out without skipping a beat?

I know from experience, proper shave prep makes for a closer and more comfortable shave for me. That's a given in my experience. With this post, I'm not concerned with the benefits prep gives for a shave, I'm wondering about the importance of prep in regard to an edge.

I'll give you my answer right now but I'm curious how others will weigh in.

I believe that the lack of proper prep does diminish the duration of the integrity of an edge. I believe shaving without prepping can dull an edge much quicker than if every shave with a razor includes proper shave prep (proper shave prep being any method/s that result in whiskers being significantly softened and easier for the razor to cut).

I've said before that I pay little attention to shave prep for the following reasons: Time, very hard water and dry air in the home. At best, my prep consists of washing my face with soap and rinsing with 20 handfuls of hot water before lathering. Total time: 1-2 minutes.

Thanks for weighing in here.

Chris L

It's fairly important over the long haul - *if* you've got everything else right. I think corrosion is the big edge killer but once the edge goes beyond 30 or 40 shaves then the accumulated mechanical stress starts to take its toll and you start seeing chipping of the edge. Softening the beard helps reduce this stress, as does a lower angle (less lateral stress on the edge), as does fewer more efficient passes, as does a steeper grind, etc. But this only becomes important if the edge is also surviving the corrosive effects of the water, lather, blood and sebum. And assuming the user is past the newbie phase...

I would just repeat what I said in Mark's thread, Prep, Angle, Stroke, Stropping, are all important and as all these skills are developed then the edge lasts longer...

This is one of the reasons I get a giggle everytime I see the same question in the newbie forum "How long should a razor last between honing"

The truth really is 'We have no clue" but what ever you get your first 3 months you should double that for the next six months then double it again for the next six months...

All your attained skills are going to help extend that edge....

I know that if I cut rope with a knife blade it will dull more quickly than if I cut silken cord. To me it is a given that a softer well hydrated whisker will be easier on a razor's edge than a dry whisker. mparker762's point about corrosion being an edge killer is well taken and one that he has pointed out many times before. IIRC linen was the most effective at removing the potential corrosion ?

I share your opinions, guys. Rather than ask that you guys ditch your preps in the spirit of experimentation and knowing that Glen has had his fill of experimentation for awhile, I know it would be easiest for me to buckle down and prep to determine then how much longer my edges would go; and I know they would. I just have to change my routine and make a bit more time for it.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know that if I cut rope with a knife blade it will dull more quickly than if I cut silken cord. To me it is a given that a softer well hydrated whisker will be easier on a razor's edge than a dry whisker.

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I guess a question then is whether the damage done to the edge by cutting a dry whisker as opposed to a wet whisker is negligible compared to the damage done to the edge by corrosion as the razor continues to be used

In my instance, I'm going to rule out corrosion as a significant factor in edge degradation. I would not rule it out entirely since I would assume oxidation on some level would be inherent in most any environment. Any razor I use for shaving is brought into my bathroom only just prior to the strop and shave. After the shave the blade is dried very well then stropped at least 50 times on plain buffed horsehide and brought to a very dry area of the home.

I recall seeing somewhere that a dry whisker has a similar tensile strength to copper wire of the same diameter. I don't shave dry, but, guilty as charged on being lax on proper prep.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I guess a question then is whether the damage done to the edge by cutting a dry whisker as opposed to a wet whisker is negligible compared to the damage done to the edge by corrosion as the razor continues to be used

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Once IIRC Utopian pointed out that if you are honing a razor and let it sit for a very short time surface rust would begin to appear in spots on the bevel. I've seen this happen. I know with tattoo needles when we used to reuse needles ( after sterilizing, now we only use them once) if you let the needle sit a few minutes before putting it into the ultrasonic the blood/skin residue would literally eat into the carbon steel. That is one reason I make sure to give the razor a good hot water rinse, dry and stropping following the shave and wipe it with the silicone gun cloth with the rust preventative.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I guess a question then is whether the damage done to the edge by cutting a dry whisker as opposed to a wet whisker is negligible compared to the damage done to the edge by corrosion as the razor continues to be used

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This is a good point. I also get Jimmy's point, but I don't think the differences between an "improperly prepped" whisker is THAT different from one that is. I think, for me, and YMMV, the more important thing is shaving a clean face. I'm a fairly greasy guy and if I shave after work, I know that I have a high oil content on my face (since I showered in the morning).

So, notwithstanding the existing benefits of prep (essentially soaking whiskers to soften), to me, the obvious result is that you can't get all the benefits of a good lather if you have an oily face, because as we all know, oil and water do not mix.

So if I'm shaving without a shower, I just wash my mug and then I consider myself prepped. I haven't noticed any other differences along the lines of ease of passes, comfort, or edge durability. This is in my 3+ months or so of shaving at which I consider a "more experienced" level.

Also, another important fact that's going overlooked in my opinion is beard thickness/texture. Some guys have baby faces. I'd bet the house that two guys of the same skill, with the same razor, and the same honing progression would experience different edge durabilities.

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Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

beard thickness/texture

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Are you referring to how densely together the hair grows or the individual thickness and texture of each hair?

Well again, I can only go off personal experience. I do not consider what I do to be serious prep - just a quick splash or two of hot water and then lather. Although, I do let the lather sit on my face while I strop and then re-lather before I shave, so perhaps that does soften my whiskers adequately - my shaves go pretty well overall I guess.

In any event, I can see how an adequate amount of beard prep could impact on your edge longevity. But personally I think beard prep and leather/linen do not play as large a role in edge retention as steel quality and type, and the bevel angle. No empirical evidence to back that assertion up, just a gut feeling.

James.

My gut feeling is that it all plays a part. If you , James, were to take some extra time and do a really through prep I would be interested to know if you noticed a difference in how the shave felt and if it turned out to be closer than what you routinely do now.

As far as edge longevity the steel type, temper, grind and all of that undoubtedly plays a part but what it is cutting and how it is maintained afterwards must also be an important part of the equation IMHO.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Are you referring to how densely together the hair grows or the individual thickness and texture of each hair?

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Individual thickness of each hair. Maybe I'm "splitting hairs" but a blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skinned guy is going to have thinner, more pliable whiskers than a Sicilian with olive complexion and black hair.

In other words, you can't place the responsibility of the durability of an edge on prep alone (and perhaps I have gone slightly off-topic as a result since we are talking about prep only).

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

My gut feeling is that it all plays a part. If you , James, were to take some extra time and do a really through prep I would be interested to know if you noticed a difference in how the shave felt and if it turned out to be closer than what you routinely do now.

As far as edge longevity the steel type, temper, grind and all of that undoubtedly plays a part but what it is cutting and how it is maintained afterwards must also be an important part of the equation IMHO.

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I feel an experiment coming on.... :)

I take your point Jimmy - everything plays a role, undoubtedly. For me it is a matter of degrees. If, other things being held constant, better prep can extend the time between honing by a "significant" amount, let me at it. But if we are only talking days, or perhaps a week or so, the additional time and effort involved in upping my prep on a daily basis would not be worth it to me. That's just me of course, and in no way meant to be a comment on what others should think or do.

Actually, I think I may do that experiment - I have a lot of Bengall razors, to the point where I know that I have at least four that are basically identical in terms of era of production, size, grind and hone wear. That will be two for my face and two for my head (one with good prep and one with normal prep, for each shave area). No replication, but as good as I can get - although repeating the process over time will generate replications of a kind. I will work out an experimental design and start a thread elsewhere to keep this one clean.

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Individual thickness of each hair. Maybe I'm "splitting hairs" but a blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skinned guy is going to have thinner, more pliable whiskers than a Sicilian with olive complexion and black hair.

In other words, you can't place the responsibility of the durability of an edge on prep alone (and perhaps I have gone slightly off-topic as a result since we are talking about prep only).

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An absolute measure of prep (or an absolute time limit on edges) is not going to work for the reasons you mention, for sure. But relative prep should be OK, as in "an amount of prep that adequately softens the beard of an individual". In addition, this is all relative - extending the life of the edge on an individual basis. So you might get 2 months from an edge based on your beard type with minor prep, while someone else gets 4 based on theirs, ceteris paribus. We want to know what happens to each person's edges if they use better prep - the first guy may extend to 4 months, the second to 6.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

An absolute measure of prep (or an absolute time limit on edges) is not going to work for the reasons you mention, for sure. But relative prep should be OK, as in "an amount of prep that adequately softens the beard of an individual". In addition, this is all relative - extending the life of the edge on an individual basis. So you might get 2 months from an edge based on your beard type with minor prep, while someone else gets 4 based on theirs, ceteris paribus. We want to know what happens to each person's edges if they use better prep - the first guy may extend to 4 months, the second to 6.

James.

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Exactly... I got off topic. Apologies.

Are we any closer to getting good images of edges showing the effects of different stropping materials and methods, and how much rust actually builds up on the edge overnight? I thought there was someone who might have been able to do some electron microscopy for us.

????

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I will work out an experimental design and start a thread elsewhere to keep this one clean.

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Please link it from here if- er, I mean when you do :D

My protocol has been posted, and the experiment starts in a week's time (piloting of new prep routine starts today.)

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...xperiment.html

James.