A fake Wade & Butcher?

I recently purchased the razor pictured below off of eBay. It came with plastic scales that were damaged and an OLD case that does not look like it belongs with the razor. What makes me wonder if the blade is fake is the incredible condition it is in (absolutely NO rust, no pitting, no spots whatsoever) coupled with the fake-looking etching.. crooked arrow/feather and stained black inside, which really makes it stand out as you can tell from the pictures.

Have any of you ever come across a fake W&B before? If so, are there some tell-tale signs? I would note that the seller does have 100% positive feedback and has sold over 100 razors on eBay from looking at the description of the items sold.

Thanks!

No expert by any means..but I for one can't see the logic in faking them. For one thing if you reproduced them, you might as well say so and get creative with selling many repro's...
Albeit the prices for them have certainly gotten a little ludicrous...

That's a nice looking shaver. If it concerns you that it may be fake, I'll give it a shot. Looks like a nice grab.

Counterfeit pocket knives became a common occurrence in the 1970s when some of the Remington Bullets, Case Tested and what have you started bringing high dollars. I couldn't say on that one but if they were going to go to all that trouble it seems to me they would've went with a "For Barber's Use" to get the top dollar. :shrug:

Its real, don't worry. If the scales are plastic it was rescaled. Often times the old horn scales were mouse eaten. probably someone else did all the hard restore work for you. Count yourself lucky.

it is real and you don't have to worry a lot. make handles and have fun

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Originally Posted by dpl2

I recently purchased the razor pictured below off of eBay. It came with plastic scales that were damaged and an OLD case that does not look like it belongs with the razor. What makes me wonder if the blade is fake is the incredible condition it is in (absolutely NO rust, no pitting, no spots whatsoever) coupled with the fake-looking etching.. crooked arrow/feather and stained black inside, which really makes it stand out as you can tell from the pictures.

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I can state with absolute certainty that;

1) Many razors have been re-scaled throughout the last 2 centuries and have been sold and re-sold without the knowledge of the buyer or seller.

2) A good amount of the razors with cases sold on the bay are mismatched.

3) I've never seen a counterfeit vintage English straight razor.

It looks to me like it has been cleaned up (possibly hand sanded), re-scaled, and matched to a random box. If you bought it for the blade, you should be safe, and it looks like a good one.


*edit* beaten quickly by a mod and a mentor. Ya'll are too quick ;)

Thanks for reassuring me! Although, I'm still puzzled by the shoddy etching. How could it have crooked, rather than straight lines? Guess it's not stamped onto the blade... And how could it have been preserved so well? I have never seen one without at least some minor rust and/or pitting.. One the other hand, maybe someone ground everything out and then poorly retraced the etching and then black-inked it up... Who the heck knows, right? Well it's off to Max now for new scales and (further?) restoration!

Where is the crooked line? I can't see it from here...

One thing, though, I have to ask: Why do people keep thinking they have counterfeit razors? Who is the big mastermind making all of these fake razors (of all things...)? And how do you PROVE that a razor was faked, rather than just made by the guy at the factory having a bad day?

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Originally Posted by JimR

One thing, though, I have to ask: Why do people keep thinking they have counterfeit razors? Who is the big mastermind making all of these fake razors (of all things...)? And how do you PROVE that a razor was faked, rather than just made by the guy at the factory having a bad day?

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IDK where others are coming from, but I made a thread about a particular razor around a year ago.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...-fake-idk.html

It had a light stamp covered by another maker's mark and scales that looked like they were from yet another manufacturer.

It turned out to be a franken-razor of sorts, and it's still one of my favorites, but that's one explanation of a forum user crying "fake!".

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Originally Posted by JimR

Where is the crooked line? I can't see it from here...

One thing, though, I have to ask: Why do people keep thinking they have counterfeit razors? Who is the big mastermind making all of these fake razors (of all things...)? And how do you PROVE that a razor was faked, rather than just made by the guy at the factory having a bad day?

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The etching is crooked in several places. I agree it's hard to tell from the pics. I have many razors and this is the first time I've ever questioned one's authenticity. Of course we know there's no mastermind out there. That said, if someone can have one made for $20 or less and sell it for 10X that amount, there's reason to do it. If that were the case, I guess there'd be more complaints like mine, as eBay would likely be flooded with fakes. Proving something is a fake is not always easy, but there could be tell-tale signs to the trained eye (which I am not, and which is why I sought input from SRP members on this topic). It could have been, as you point out, a bad day for the gal at the factory. Or it could be a shoddy restoration. Or it could be one huge conspiracy to bilk me out of my razor money! Or it could just be my imagination running wild. ;-)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

… but if they were going to go to all that trouble it seems to me they would've went with a "For Barber's Use" to get the top dollar. :shrug:

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I think Jimmy's hit the nail on the head here. How does it shave? When you look at the kind of prices custom makers can command for producing fine shavers, why would someone of no mean talent fake a vintage (assuming it shaves as well as it looks etc)?

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Originally Posted by AlanII

I think Jimmy's hit the nail on the head here. How does it shave? When you look at the kind of prices custom makers can command for producing fine shavers, why would someone of no mean talent fake a vintage (assuming it shaves as well as it looks etc)?

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I haven't shaved with it yet. I'm sending it out to get honed and rescaled. I'll be curious what this experienced honemeister/restorer's observations are once he gets the razor in hand.

One thing that stands out in the photos, anyway, is the amount of black in the etching, which does make for a very nice contrast against the silver of the blade. All of the W&B's I have seen or purchased have etching that is the same color (that is, silver) as the surrounding blade.

My question for the blade restorers here is this -- would it make sense for someone to use some nice black enamel or lacquer to "fill in" or color the engraved/etched words on the blade to make them stand out? Again, I don't believe for even a second that this blade is a fake or counterfeit in any way (and actually I bid on it myself when it was being sold on ebay). But it does look like whoever did the restoration also enhanced the etching on the blade, which might be causing any doubts here.

Wouldn't the lacquer or enamel also chip off over time? I've never seen it done but it looks like this is what happened here.

i'll exchange it for one,may be two with rust and all. i'll even cover your shipping to me...

Its a real W&B.

It may be a regrind that has been subjected to lazer etching. Bob at OCD has a lazer etcher that is detailed enough for that mark, so I don't see why some one else couldn't do so.

Why it was for sale? I can't tell you.

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One thing, though, I have to ask: Why do people keep thinking they have counterfeit razors? Who is the big mastermind making all of these fake razors (of all things...)? And how do you PROVE that a razor was faked, rather than just made by the guy at the factory having a bad day?

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Read Pynchons "The Crying of Lot 49" it is in my "Books I cant live without thread" people love conspiracy theories, for some it's as good if not better then believing in God.

BTW I have this razor in full size 1+ inch and it is "For Barbers use" In Cocobolo scales.

Cheers
David

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Originally Posted by Scipio

Its a real W&B.

It may be a regrind that has been subjected to lazer etching. Bob at OCD has a lazer etcher that is detailed enough for that mark, so I don't see why some one else couldn't do so.

Why it was for sale? I can't tell you.

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This is an original razor with an original colored etching. I had two or three similar razor in my hand. I think that originally many W&B had an black colored etching, but the paint went away over the years. Today the etching without any color is usual. But on very few pieces you will have it, like it was.

If the etching is still deep an clean it is not a problem to "recolor" it. But it is difficult to find razors in such perfect conditions.

Ya it is definately a fake but I will give you $25 for it so it doesn't sting so bad having been had like that.

Are you sure the scales are plastic? If they have any grain patter where they're broken they might be polished horn, and you've got a genuinely minty W&B there.

Certainly genuine W&B, pre-1895 and rescaled - I've never seen one of this age with plastic original scales.

And again - why fake them? If you're going to do stuff like this fake 6th. C Samurai swords or something - worth a lot more money........

But I agree - I have NEVER seen a fake W&B or old Sheffield razor. The game just isn't worth the candle.

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Originally Posted by blueprinciple

Certainly genuine W&B, pre-1895 and rescaled - I've never seen one of this age with plastic original scales.

And again - why fake them? If you're going to do stuff like this fake 6th. C Samurai swords or something - worth a lot more money........

But I agree - I have NEVER seen a fake W&B or old Sheffield razor. The game just isn't worth the candle.

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Vlad made the closest thing to a fake W&B that I've seen. Sure, it was a W&B to start, but just sayin... :hmmm:

The Making of a MINTY W&B Meatchopper. - Straight Razor Place Forums

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Originally Posted by BigBubba

Vlad made the closest thing to a fake W&B that I've seen. Sure, it was a W&B to start, but just sayin... :hmmm:

The Making of a MINTY W&B Meatchopper. - Straight Razor Place Forums

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Hmmmmm... there are some definite similarities to the razor I bought... but all that work for not a lot of money... seems like someone would be more inclined to re-etch it as a labor of love and to have a keepsake, rather than to make a little dough..

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Originally Posted by dpl2

Hmmmmm... there are some definite similarities to the razor I bought... but all that work for not a lot of money... seems like someone would be more inclined to re-etch it as a labor of love and to have a keepsake, rather than to make a little dough..

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Yeah, that post was a little tongue in cheek, and to expose the work of Vlad to some new guys.

I should have made it more obvious.

BTW, it looks like you got a great razor. I hope you enjoy it for many years to come. :)

Ok. My opinion, this is original W & B blade with bakelite scales (razor was rescaled). Most likely the etching was restored by "Presto" Gun Blue Pen or something like this.

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Originally Posted by BigBubba

Vlad made the closest thing to a fake W&B that I've seen. Sure, it was a W&B to start, but just sayin... :hmmm:

The Making of a MINTY W&B Meatchopper. - Straight Razor Place Forums

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That is an absolutely outstanding refurbishment. It really is vertually mint.

Since my name got drug into this let me try to clarify or confuse the situation.

First of all, I don't have a laser engraver. An engraving shop near me has one, but it can only burn wood, bone, ivory and the like. No metal and definitly not hardened steel. They also have a diamond engraver. It barely scratches hardened steel.

On the razor, the lettering on the tang is punched in BEFORE the steel is hardened. Don't hold me to these numbers but high carbon steel is mid 30s rockwell. After hardening and tempering about 60 rockwell. The lettering punches are about 50 rockwell, still hard, but tempered more to resist shattering.

The blade is obviously etched AFTER hardening and grinding. This is almost impossible to do mechanically. Most probably it was done chemically. The blade would be covered in an acid resistant material. I can't remember exactly what it was now. But let's say it was wax. The design, lettering or whatever would be scratched into the wax baring the metal. Then Aqua Rega (super acid) would be applied. The wax would protect the metal and the acid would etch the bared metal. If you have imperfect etching it was probably due to the prepared blade suffering some sort of trauma before or during acid application.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. :) :soapbox:

Bob
OCD Razors

Hey guys, I've had this razor for about two years now. The engraving job is terrible and I have a hard time believing that it passed a quality control inspection. I bought it from someone on SRP and am not sure what to do with it. I have tried to hone it to no avail and am not sure if it would be worth the money to have it restored. The scales appear to be real tortoise but I'm not sure. Any recommendations on what to do? Thanks.

Kyle

The writing just looks worn out to me. Now if it were mis-spelled, that would be a dead give-away!