found this whilst browsing Razors Under a Microscope - Shaving - Gizmodo :)
ian
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found this whilst browsing Razors Under a Microscope - Shaving - Gizmodo :)
ian
quite an interesting read
The straight isn't stropped, and I'll bet it's not been honed since it left the factory either. As we know, they don't come shave ready. I don't know if the author is just ignorant about straights, but I can see how that could be very misleading.
This is even more interesting, with photos taken by an electron microscope photos at up to 3,000x, including edge-on shots in case you're interested in seeing why razors don't have "teeth".
He states quite clearly that.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
He admits that the razor could have been sharper had it been prepaired propperly.Quote:
. Let me quickly qualify: "Stropping" is the process of dragging a straight razor back and forth over a sharpening surface, commonly leather. The Thiers-Issard hadn't been stropped at all before we looked at its edge and I'm certain that in the practiced hands of a straight razor shaver or fleet-handed barber, its edge would have been more perfect.
Screw the pictures, I fell out of my chair when I read "With Gillette's purchase of The Art of Shaving". Holy Cow! Is nothing sacred. What will they buy next DOVO?
I can see it now, the five leather disposable strop!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
plenty to read there !
ian
:roflmao More is less !Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
no no no, we will have to learn how to hold 4 razors at a time all one behind the other as to get the quatro feel, i believe i could do it, just dont ask to see what is left of my face afterward, and i wont even go into how bad my scalp would bleed
I don't really see the point of comparing 2 razors in tip-top shape (Bic and the multiblade thingie), and 1 that is very likely not suitably sharpened to shave. Seems a bit unfair.
I did find the last picture of the used up disposable blade though. Man, that thing looks brutal!
Somebody needs to comment and invite people here.
Yes, I get that. But given that the straight is not stropped or honed, what is the point of looking at it? It's like reviewing how a car handles without installing or tuning the suspension - there is just no point.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigIan
What's with all the people that believe that stropping is to remove a wire edge?
I was going to comment, but didn't feel like giving them my email address.
Hey! that's one of my SOTD pictures they use there.
That would really p@#@ me offQuote:
Originally Posted by nightbreed
You should bring that up with the author had have them give proper attribution on the picture or have them remove it.
Yeah, props where they're due.Quote:
Originally Posted by akw
You don't see "teeth" in those photos? They're not exaggerated like a saw edge, but when I look at those photos, following the fine striations to the very edge of the razor, there is definitely a micro-serration. Very slight, not very uniform, but certainly there. At least to my eye it is present. Look at fig 9 SEM for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
I left a comment on the picture, advising them to observe copyright laws, but my comment hasn't shown up yet.
is it thievery? is it flattery? Hmmm... ;)
Oddly enough that was one of the photos I was talking about. There are irregularities along the edges shown in the rightmost photos (at 800x and 750x). But nothing that I would consider "teeth" in the sense that is usually discussed around here, for one thing the few tooth-like artifacts are sparse, irregularly distributed, and don't appear similarly on the left and right sides of the edge. There are a few larger artifacts that look like microchips, and wide swathes of pretty regular if slightly wavy edge in between where there are extended areas of folded-over burr, depending on which side you're looking at. In particular, look at the leftmost photo which is taken head-on to the edge, and taken at a much higher magnification (3000x) than the right photos. Presumably the teeth should really show up well here. You can see the scratches in the bevel as they approach the edge, but where they leave the blade they don't appear have created corresponding teeth, there's just bits of folded-over burr, and at least in this left-most photo it appears that the microchip-like spots merely appear to be places where the burr is broken off.Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Given the prominence of the burrs, it's interesting that the straight razor in these photos is described as being "freshly stropped". I believe this confirms Verhoeven's controversial finding later in his paper that stropping on leather has no affect on burrs, as it had no effect on his test blades and appears to have had no effect on an actual straight razor as honed by a straight shaver.
Edit: I've attached the photo in question for the benefit of the others...
What would be interesting is to see the same types of SEM photos of a razors edge after variations in honing and stropping. For instance, honing straight across instead of a diagonal X pattern. And then unstropped, stropped straight across, and stropped X pattern. And then correlate the visible state of the edge with things like HHT, TPT, and shaving quality.
Maybe just semantics, I see "teeth" you see "irregularities." For all practical purposes as regards a razor, they may be the same.
And another point, Mr. William Dauksch, the one mentioned in the paper who has used a straight razor for several decades, and who's razor was SEM'd for the study, for all we know he may be only mediocre at honing and stropping?
I've thought about contacting the micro department of a university to see if the SEM's can be hired out for a series of razor tests. I think the going rate is not unreasonable, but who knows how long this would take? Also, my fear is the differences would be very subtle even at 3,000X.
So it was supposed to have been freshly stropped, but we don't know whether on leather only or linen plus leather. Also, we don't know how many laps it was stropped, and we don't know what it looked like before stropping. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
there is this article in the wiki: http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi..._various_hones, which compares the edges of different types of hones, including CrOx and .5 micron diamond paste. Maybe you/we should ask the author to expand his work...though it should be noted that he used a regular close-up shot, not an electron microscope. Still quite effective at highlighting key differences, but nothing compares to an SEM.....Quote:
Originally Posted by honedright
Just took the Art of Shaving out of my bookmarks. LONG LIVE SRP the true art of shaving.
Hey, guys. I'm the person that wrote that article.
First thing's first: Nightbreed, sorry we screwed up! I didn't actually assemble the gallery for that article (just the microscopic close-ups), but I apologize on behalf of everybody at Giz. We love using images from other people, but we should have asked. Please let me know what you'd like me to do. I'd be happy to give you credit in the article for your image, or just remove the image entirely. Email or DM me and I'll get it taken care of tout suite.
As for the rest of the discussion... I actually was originally going to try to get some time on an SEM for all this, then was dissuaded by the lab geeks at UO and encouraged to stay optical. But since the article went up, I was contacted by some blade engineers for major razor companies who started talking about all the molecular engineering that goes into coating (although he asked to remain anonymous). Now I'm curious to get all these blades under an SEM myself, although that will have to wait for another day.
And as for the straight razors under the microscope, that T-I was not honed or stropped at all by me, because I was worried that my poor technique might actually made it worse than its from-the-factory finish. It would be very interesting to do a before-and-after of a blade from the factory and one stropped by someone with real skill. (Which as I hope came through in the article is definitely not me! Although I am keeping the razors from ClassicShaving.com for a couple more weeks to try to learn the techniques.)
Anyway, I'm glad you guys found the article worth discussing, and again, Nightbreed, please let me know what you want me to do and I'll get it taken care of. My email is joelTHISISGARBAGE@gizmodo.com.
Glad i took the time to post this now :)
ian
Hi Joel,
First of all thanks for taking the time to come here and make things right, whatever ends up happening with that image. So many writers wouldn't have bothered to make the effort. Kudos to you.
Second, I sincerely hope that you'll stick around SRP for awhile and learn about straight shaving. You might find that you really enjoy those razors from ClassigShaving.
Finally, keep us posted on any future articles you do with regard to this topic. As you've noticed, there are a lot of people here with a great interest in this, and the input might be useful to you as to what to look at in an experiment. Also, I'd be willing to bet that several people would be willing to send blades out that have been finished by various techniques, to see what they look like under a SEM.
Thanks for putting together that article, and thanks again for stopping by to make things right regarding Nightbreed's picture. :)
:bow:bow:bowQuote:
Originally Posted by joeljohnson
Joel - yes I second the thanks for your coming on here and explaining and trying to sort things out. I also second the encouragement for you to pursue your idea of getting some good SEM images of various varieties (e.g. honed and honed and stropped) of razor blades of various kinds (e.g. disposable cartridge and straight). You will definitely find *more* than adequate help and support from this community here, as well as, I agree, offers of services and blades for the project. Go needle your editor. Then go email classicshaving.com to work out a way to keep one of those razors. Cheers.
Is that a microbiology department? Or do they know have departments that study various kinds of very small things?Quote:
Originally Posted by matt321
Joel,
Thanks for making this right
:beer1: :beer1: :beer1:
Adam
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeljohnson
Microscopy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijbil
Right, I meant Microscopy Department like this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijbil
Welcome! — MIC
Ideal situation would be to get a grad student to pick this up as a thesis or research paper. Maybe that would keep the costs down.
Fees — MIC
Maybe you've already seen these, if not, here's some 200x images Tim Zowada took of edges/bevels on different finishing stones after a Norton 8k...
Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Edges
Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Bevels
-D
As an electron microscopist this is a great thread!
I should be able to get some time on a machine for a 'project'
Where do I start though?
I'm a newbie when it comes to straights.
I have a bengall that was shave ready when I bought it, but I have used / stropped it, and it will need a hone soon, I guess I could try and capture my progress?
I have a have a DT and c12k(ebay) on order.
Duffer, you are gonna become a popular guy in short order. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffer
There are sooo many things that would be nice to see under a SEM. Probably the biggest thing that I would like to see would be a comparison of finishing techniques: edges finished off of just an 8k vs. various finishers vs. different pastes. Much of that has already been done with optical microscopy, but the SEM gives much better depth of field and makes it easier to see what's going on.
I'm sure there will be a lot of other ideas about what would be worthwhile uses of an SEM.
the thing to look at with SEM is the effect of stropping, the finishes off the hones are pretty clear and straightforward, the stropping is still somewhat of a mystery.
you need to use much lower magnification for honing, a good 100x optical microscope or even less magnification is more than enough.