A response to my questions from Heribert Wacker

Recently there have been two threads I have chimed in on that required further investigation. I went to Herr Wacker with hem. The first questions were these:

1. Is there a standard carbon steel used throughout the razor industry? If so, do you know what its designation is? What they presently call "silver steel" is just a good quality tool steel from what I have determined. Is this a standard steel or a higher level product? Any other information you can supply about the steel quality would be appreciated.

To which he responded:

According to your Questions:
1. There is a standard (carbon) steel for razor blanks (incl. also fine scissors).
This standard steel is very high purified. But please understand that the forge will not tell everybody about the basics of their business. So I do not know what its name is. In the past, the silver steel has been the same steel as the scissors steel. Then, the part for the razors was divided from the rest, again purified. Today, this is not made any more. When I am going to buy blanks, they will be from the today’s standard carbon steel. (I will pronounce, that it is very good!!) Silver steel is not made any more. So I am glad that I have so many old blanks left!

My second questions were:
2. There is controversy about the proper way to measure the width/size of a straight razor. I contend that it is supposed to be measured from the top of the spine to the cutting edge. Is this correct? There is also controversy about why a razor that is 5/8, 6/8, etc. is quite often not exactly the size is supposed to be. I have said I believe the blade blanks Wacker Raisermesser, DOVO, G&F, etc. are grinding are actually metric blades and you guys put them into the closest English measurement size. Is that true?

To which he responded (and I was quite surprised by the answer to the second half of this question):

[2. The correct way to measure a razor is: from the top of the back to the cutting edge. everything else is wrong. There are no other ways, because of the many different ways a back can be. In the past there have been two different kinds of inch. The english inch, and the so called "Rheinisches Zoll (RZ)" (Zoll= inch in german).
The RZ is a bit different from the English inch, it is between the metric system and Inch.


I have never heard of a Rheinisches Zoll (RZ) before. I just thought they were blanks made in the metric system of measurements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Crowley

I have never heard of a Rheinisches Zoll (RZ) before. I just thought they were blanks made in the metric system of measurements.

---

Well, you would have to be a very special person to notice the difference:

1 Rheinisches Zoll = 26.0 millimeters
1 inch = 25.4 millimeters

Regards,
Robin

very interesting John !

juko

Quote:

---

1 Rheinisches Zoll = 26.0 millimeters

---

1 Rheinisches Zoll (The Rhine union) = 26,1541 millimeters:)
or
1 Revel inch = 26,715 millimeters

I know, that these systems were used in industry. But didn't know about using in cutlery.

"The Keyed Bugle" By Ralph Thomas Dudgeon.

Thats an interesting read, thanks John!

Thanks for that John, please list the correct Rheinisches Zoll measurements for all of the razors on your website, I'm looking to make a purchase and inquiring minds .... :roflmao

Thanks for the extra effort,John.We appreciate it!

Great information - thanks for asking Heribert and thank him for responding.

Does that mean the new bokers with Silver steel are actually old blanks or any razor for that matter that we see as "silver steel" old blanks/stock?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 44Whiskas

Great information - thanks for asking Heribert and thank him for responding.

Does that mean the new bokers with Silver steel are actually old blanks or any razor for that matter that we see as "silver steel" old blanks/stock?

---

That is a good question. I know that TI was branding their stuff Silver Steel as recently as a few years ago and then went to the new alloy that they previewed in the limited Silverwing. I wonder if they ran out of the older alloy and that is why they developed the newer steel ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meister Wacker

The correct way to measure a razor is: from the top of the back to the cutting edge. everything else is wrong. There are no other ways, because of the many different ways a back can be.

---

I don't get it. What exactly is "the top of the back"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I don't get it. What exactly is "the top of the back"?

---

I think he means the top of the spine. OTOH, I just went and checked a half dozen TI blades. For example the Silverwing one and two are listed as 5/8 and they measure that from the honing flat. From the top of the spine they are about 6/8. So I guess there is some variance depending on which company is doing the measuring. :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 44Whiskas

Great information - thanks for asking Heribert and thank him for responding.

Does that mean the new bokers with Silver steel are actually old blanks or any razor for that matter that we see as "silver steel" old blanks/stock?

---

From what he is saying it is now just a marketing tool.

It’s kind of like seeing "All Natural" on a carton of eggs. I wonder where you go to get the unnatural ones. (I am a bit of a jokester and I have actually asked them that at Wal-Mart. You should see the puzzled looks I get! They are really perplexed when I ask them where they keep the unnatural chicken <LOL>.) :shrug:

Really neat thread, John! Thanks for asking these questions, and major kudos as well to the artisan himself for giving an inside/ professional answer to some common questions!

I have been researching a little more and it seems that silver steel is a specialty item not produced in great quantity any more. The technical specification for modern silver steel dates back to 1970.

Genuine BS1407 Silver Steel
Silver Steel is a versatile high carbon tool steel is ground to very close tolerances. It is so called because of its highly polished appearance created by the extremely fine surface finish. The high carbon content of this BS1407 silver steel means that it can be hardened to give considerable wear resistance and the chromium content increases strength and hardenability. It is readily machinable as supplied in the spheroidised annealed condition. The material as delivered shall have a hardness of not more than 285HB when measured in accordance with BS240*

It appears that BS1407 is roughly the equivilant of SAE O-1 and is only made in the UK:

From: Technical information on steel shafts for DIY'ers.
There are other specialist shafting steels that can be bought usually described as "ground" or "precision ground" bar with even tighter tolerances (+0,-0.015 mm) and better surface finish (0.6 microns) than standard bright bar. One of the most commonly available of these in the UK is "Silver Steel" or more precisely high carbon bright steel to BS1407. This is commonly available in short lengths and is suitable for hardening (it contains about 1.1% carbon) but is also considerably stronger than mild steel in its unhardened supplied state and can often be used as bought. (I understand UK Silver Steel is approximately equivalent to US ground tool steel SAE 0-1.)

John,

I was wondering what would be the correct width of my 15/16 Wacker Antik Spanish Point Limited Edition 6/16. That's six of sixteen made.
Not six sixteenths of an inch if anyone is curious.

It seems to be much closer to 7/8 than 15/16 at the widest part of the blade. Then it occurred to that the top of the spine is curved. The center of the top of the spine is below an imaginary line drawn from the toe of the spine to the heel of the spine. Then it ocurred to me that a measurement from this imaginary line down to the widest part of the blade (which would be at the center of the blade edge) would give me the adjusted width (the "advertised width").

Hence the difference between the actual width from the top of the spine to the blade edge at the widest part of the blade and the "advertised width" of 15/16.

So, how close am I to solving this problem? I have no idea. Talk to me..........:beer2:.

Woah! Anyone else look at the BS1407's hardness? 64 rhc. You could be seeing micro-chipping pretty quick when the steel is that brittle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I think he means the top of the spine. OTOH, I just went and checked a half dozen TI blades. For example the Silverwing one and two are listed as 5/8 and they measure that from the honing flat. From the top of the spine they are about 6/8. So I guess there is some variance depending on which company is doing the measuring. :shrug:

---

Thank you Jimmy:

Ahhhhhhh A difference in the Company doing the measuring hmmmmmm it could also be a difference in the country that the company doing the measuring is sitting in when they did this alleged measuring...

Hmmmm seems that is what "somebody" said in the original thread that started this whole round of questioning...

Like I said in the last thread John when you were talking about this being a difference in metric measuring these theories all fall apart when you reach the shores of the USA because the NOS razors sitting in their little packages that you find made here and stamped here prove, all this depends on who made it and where it was made...Some razors are measured from the edge to the hone line on the spine too...

I am sorry but I just don't see any possible "Rule" or "Method" to this madness,
but that was an interresting bit of research... thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrsell63

John,

I was wondering what would be the correct width of my 15/16 Wacker Antik Spanish Point Limited Edition 6/16. That's six of sixteen made.
Not six sixteenths of an inch if anyone is curious.

It seems to be much closer to 7/8 than 15/16 at the widest part of the blade. Then it occurred to that the top of the spine is curved. The center of the top of the spine is below an imaginary line drawn from the toe of the spine to the heel of the spine. Then it ocurred to me that a measurement from this imaginary line down to the widest part of the blade (which would be at the center of the blade edge) would give me the adjusted width (the "advertised width").

Hence the difference between the actual width from the top of the spine to the blade edge at the widest part of the blade and the "advertised width" of 15/16.

So, how close am I to solving this problem? I have no idea. Talk to me..........:beer2:.

---

I have a little steel rule with a slide attachment. I pulled it out and measured the blade and the blade was closer to 15/16 than anything else - so that is what I called it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Thank you Jimmy:

Ahhhhhhh A difference in the Company doing the measuring hmmmmmm it could also be a difference in the country that the company doing the measuring is sitting in when they did this alleged measuring...

Hmmmm seems that is what "somebody" said in the original thread that started this whole round of questioning...

Like I said in the last thread John when you were talking about this being a difference in metric measuring these theories all fall apart when you reach the shores of the USA because the NOS razors sitting in their little packages that you find made here and stamped here prove, all this depends on who made it and where it was made...Some razors are measured from the edge to the hone line on the spine too...

I am sorry but I just don't see any possible "Rule" or "Method" to this madness,
but that was an interresting bit of research... thanks

---

I admitted I was wrong. Be a man - you weren't right either!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Crowley

I admitted I was wrong. Be a man - you weren't right either!

---

Really???
Sorry it seems that I told you in the first place it depended on the Manufacturer and the Country it was made in...

So man up and say it,,, "Damn Glen was right",,, I know it hurts, honest I do... :)


he hehehehe








You know I just messing with ya now right???? Honestly thanks for doing more research, any more info that we can add to these little mysteries helps all of us...


Also another thought struck me as I was shaving with my Harner blade this morning, I am pretty sure our custom makers today grind to a center line in the blade for grinding face accuracy, then worry about the actual "size" of the blade second...Which would account for some variances in actual size... Just a thought..

I am always happier if I get a razor advertised as 5/8 and it turns out to be 11/16s. I don't know if that is just me or if it is a USA thing. :shrug: The old bigger is better syndrome. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spect

Woah! Anyone else look at the BS1407's hardness? 64 rhc. You could be seeing micro-chipping pretty quick when the steel is that brittle.

---

Just because that type of steel CAN be hardened to that level doesn't mean it has to be. It depends on the formula used to temper the metal. The hardness is always adjusted with the tempering process to make sure it is only as hard as it needs to be and isn't brittle.

I'm not sure this is the same thing. 1970 is way late to apply to most straight razors. I have an old Solingen blade from a 7-day set that is quite old that is labeled "Feinster Silberstahl" i.e. "Finest Silver-steel." The term seems to have been used long before 1970. I have a book somewhere that discusses this a bit in relation to razors. I'll hunt it down and see if the waters can be even further muddied!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Crowley

I have been researching a little more and it seems that silver steel is a specialty item not produced in great quantity any more. The technical specification for modern silver steel dates back to 1970.

Genuine BS1407 Silver Steel
Silver Steel is a versatile high carbon tool steel is ground to very close tolerances. It is so called because of its highly polished appearance created by the extremely fine surface finish. The high carbon content of this BS1407 silver steel means that it can be hardened to give considerable wear resistance and the chromium content increases strength and hardenability. It is readily machinable as supplied in the spheroidised annealed condition. The material as delivered shall have a hardness of not more than 285HB when measured in accordance with BS240*

It appears that BS1407 is roughly the equivilant of SAE O-1 and is only made in the UK:

From: Technical information on steel shafts for DIY'ers.
There are other specialist shafting steels that can be bought usually described as "ground" or "precision ground" bar with even tighter tolerances (+0,-0.015 mm) and better surface finish (0.6 microns) than standard bright bar. One of the most commonly available of these in the UK is "Silver Steel" or more precisely high carbon bright steel to BS1407. This is commonly available in short lengths and is suitable for hardening (it contains about 1.1% carbon) but is also considerably stronger than mild steel in its unhardened supplied state and can often be used as bought. (I understand UK Silver Steel is approximately equivalent to US ground tool steel SAE 0-1.)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LawsonStone

I'm not sure this is the same thing. 1970 is way late to apply to most straight razors.

---

More like 1870

Thread, thread.... I meant to say 'thread," not "link." Sorry about that.