Steel for razors in the 1800s ?

Not to hijack your link, but what about steel used for razors in the mid 19th century? There are Soligen and Sheffield and probably others. Were all razors marked "Sheffield" or "Soligen" made from the same metal? I find it a little hard to believe that a razor manufacturer back then would have a special steel made just for different grades of razors. Or different razor manufacturers would have special steel made just for themselves. Which leads to my further question. Was a Wade and Butcher Sheffield steel razor made of the same steel as, say, a Greaves or an Allen?

An interesting question. Going by what we can read on the etchings Silver Steel, India Steel and even older, Cast Steel seem to be fairly common. Michael Faraday of electricity fame was the inventor or developer of Silver Steel according to books that I have read.

What I have found interesting is the German razors being frequently marked Sheffield or Silver steel while the Sheffield razors were many times marked "ground in Solingen." Those blades were seen more in the twentieth century than the nineteenth. I imagine the the manufacturers of razors in all countries were continually experimenting with new alloys trying to come up with a superior product.

The reason I asked is, I'm starting to restore older razors. For a reason not readily apparent to me, I selected Wade and Butcher. What I'm trying to learn is "what is the best 19th century Sheffield steel I can get"? Are there variations in quality of steel between brands? Are there variations in quality of steel within a brand? How do I learn without bothering everyone with posts probably of interest only to me?

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Originally Posted by fdennis

The reason I asked is, I'm starting to restore older razors. For a reason not readily apparent to me, I selected Wade and Butcher. What I'm trying to learn is "what is the best 19th century Sheffield steel I can get"? Are there variations in quality of steel between brands? Are there variations in quality of steel within a brand? How do I learn without bothering everyone with posts probably of interest only to me?

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IMHO your question is of interest to many of us. Certainly it is of interest to me. I've often wondered myself and barring some sort of metallurgical testing I don't guess we'll ever know. We can come up with our own assumptions after honing and shaving with various razors but nothing definite in a scientific sense. At least that is what I think.

IME Joseph Rodgers, W&B, Joseph Smith, F. Reynolds are all good razors. Other known and obscure Sheffield and Solingen makers are all good as a rule. At least with few exceptions AFAIC.

Steels from different locations are different. This is largely due to the differences in trace elements in the iron used to make the steel, and it is the source of the iron oar, not the location of the steel mill that counts. Steels from different mills can also differ in quality even if produced from the same iron, and even a single mill can and often does produce different quality steels. Modern steel manufacturing does, however, produce pretty much a uniform quality across a given batch and from batch to batch produced in the same way.

Soligen is more know as a producer of fine cutlery and the bladesmiths have used quality steels from various locations.

Silver steel does not contain silver, it is a type of high carbon steel. There is actually a UK specification for sliver steel. It gets its name from its bright appearance (it is also know as bright steel).

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Originally Posted by fdennis

Not to hijack your link, but what about steel used for razors in the mid 19th century? ...snip.. Was a Wade and Butcher Sheffield steel razor made of the same steel as, say, a Greaves or an Allen?

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From some study I did many years ago, the Sheffield steels, especially Wostenham were made with a process described as: A mixture of carbon, steel, and wrought iron were placed into a crucible and heated in a floor forge/furnace for a period of days and occasionally stirred.The result was a damascene steel similar to a Turkish damascene.The resulting mix was poured into billets/pigs and then forged to approximate dimension. The mixes were seldom over 20 pounds.
I would recommend this link for further info. It was not in my reading years ago:
materialising Sheffield
~Richard
Edit:
The steel in question from Turkey was "Wootz'

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Originally Posted by fdennis

Not to hijack your link, but what about steel used for razors in the mid 19th century? There are Soligen and Sheffield and probably others. Were all razors marked "Sheffield" or "Soligen" made from the same metal? I find it a little hard to believe that a razor manufacturer back then would have a special steel made just for different grades of razors. Or different razor manufacturers would have special steel made just for themselves. Which leads to my further question. Was a Wade and Butcher Sheffield steel razor made of the same steel as, say, a Greaves or an Allen?

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There is a real long answer to this question, but maybe I can get you started and not make you suffer too much. Firstly, Sheffield steel and Soligen steels have something historicaly in common. They both came from Magnetite Ores that were(are) located around Sweden. Remember that the British Empire pretty much dominated the planet.
Magnetite Fe3O4 only is found in a few places, Sweden, Norway, Adiroundack region in New York, Some in Australia and a couple other places. The rest of the world making steel were using the more common Hematite ore Fe2O3. Hemitite produced an inferior steel.
This of course is fasinating to students of history in terms of weapons, razors and tools.
In the colonial days, the Brits would send crapy ores to the American Colonies so we would have inferior tools and of course inferior weapons. That meant, many things, but ultimately you would have to buy anything steel product with the Sheffield Stamp if you wanted a good plane blade or razor.

I have modest collection of Sheffield wedges, silver steel, cast steel and just ones marked Sheffield. You will find some variation in each, but they are generally all a little softer from what I can tell compared to Germany, Sweden and USA.

That means Sheffield steel is generaly easier to get sharp, but may not hold as long. Of course most of us find heavy wedges more challenging to sharpen because of there grind style as opposed to hollows

Once in a while you can get a dud, maybe it lost it's temper from bad repairs or maybe Mr. Butcher had too much ale one night.
Personally, I really love my Sheffields and use them often.

Also the difference between Greaves, WB , Wostenholm was what they did to the cast steel or silver steel during their particular manufacturing, tempering, working etc. Which makes them all a little different.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

IMHO your question is of interest to many of us. Certainly it is of interest to me. I've often wondered myself and barring some sort of metallurgical testing I don't guess we'll ever know. We can come up with our own assumptions after honing and shaving with various razors but nothing definite in a scientific sense. At least that is what I think.

IME Joseph Rodgers, W&B, Joseph Smith, F. Reynolds are all good razors. Other known and obscure Sheffield and Solingen makers are all good as a rule. At least with few exceptions AFAIC.

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Great thread! Makes me wonder why Lummus found Reynolds to be an inferior maker. Was it the quality of steel or the maker itself.

I read somewhere, sadly I can't find the reference, that Sheffield and Solingen both had town statutes specifying the minimum quality of their steel.
This could partly explain why they became pre-eminent in the manufacture of high quality steel products. Much of the ore for Sheffield steels was imported from Sweden.

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Originally Posted by Bayamontate

Great thread! Makes me wonder why Lummus found Reynolds to be an inferior maker. Was it the quality of steel or the maker itself.

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Probably because they are ROCK HARD!

This is a great thread, though, learning a lot and enjoying speculating. I think my W&B's are so great because Sheffied Steel is made with something called purplum unobtaniium unicornis... Jimbo was tellin' me about it, all scientific-like.

So the Brits, using Swedish steel, made from Swedish ore as early as the 1700 invent a new process where they remelt it in crucibles so there are no soft spots. This is "cast steel" This process probably set the steel world on fire and reflected the power of Britain.

In the mid 1800s blast furnaces do the same thing but better and by the ton, making cast steel much more expensive to produce.

Likely some of the razor makers in Britain held on to cast steel because of tradition and up comes the rest of the world razor makers with better steel, cheaper too.

Newer methods where carbon content can be varied. I think this is the main reason Sheffield steels are softer.

In that Jimmy mentioned about some of the Solingen razors with the sheffield steel was all about historic reputation.

Please don't forget the heat treating aspect of this. Steels with similar chemical and physical characteristics can end up with drastically different results based on the heat treating of the material.

Awesome thread!

Thanks guys