Why are some better?

I've been told by a gentleman in a position to know that Double Ducks, Wusthofs, Filis and Jaguars can be honed to a sharper edge that many other brands.
I'm not one to believe generalizations such as this without being able to prove it to myself, but looking at the current prices of these brands, I may never get the chance to do so.
Conversely, I'm also not one to completely disbelieve what a person with much more experience than I tells me....But, without solid facts or reasons why, I do tend to question...

If this is truly so, there must be a good reason for it. It's not just a question of some esoteric aura surrounding certain marques.
So, it must be the steel! What alloys are used in these highly vaunted brands? Is it the alloy, the heat treating, hardness & temper, or a combination?? It's not just beinmg struck by a lightning bolt!
So, if these great razors were produced back when technology was less technological, why can't they be reproduced now?

And BTW, we're only talking about sharpness here, not smoothness or a combination of the two.

Any thoughts??

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Originally Posted by BlacknTan

So, if these great razors were produced back when technology was less technological, why can't they be reproduced now?

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It is true the brands you mention have a great reputation. You seem to conclude they can't be bested today, or even reproduced, and I don't quite understand what brings you to this conclusion? As you mentioned, there are many factors at play, but we have better technology all around now. Better steel, better tools, better heat treatment control. I never had the chance to try a high quality modern razor - no zowada or livis for me, not even a new factory produced TI - but I'm still pretty confident they all are every bit as good as those old brands.

Well, yes, in a way..

This was not my conclusion... It was what was passed along to be by a gentleman that has honed probably thousands of razors..
I would tend to be in your camp. That modern materials and processes should trump what we had before.

And that is my point...

I often wondered that question myself. I don't have a lot of experience with razors but I prefer Le Grelot, Filly's and Historical forging of TI over new production TI and Dovo's but I can't really explain why the steel just feels a bit sharper and smoother and nicer on my face, easier to shave with.

Maybe refining the processes for the industrial age and modern building materials has some how detracted from the modern razor. Or maybe it is more about how the razor itself was made as even with Filarmonica's they say the last ones produced tend to be harder to hone. This would also contribute to why artisan straights are of a higher quality as well because of the time creating the actual razor and not a mass stamping process.

Steel is steel and most likely what we have now is better quality, tempering, and heat treating is way better now...
I think the difference is in the grinding process...

Does anyone actually know how the old DD's Filli's etc: were ground...
I have seen and touched the machines that I think were used after the turn of the century... I see everything now is done with belts even TI and Dovo.. Were the older razors done on Stone grinders????? those are the machines I have seen... If that is true then I would guess that is where the difference comes from...

Then again I could be wrong :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Steel is steel and most likely what we have now is better quality, tempering, and heat treating is way better now...
I think the difference is in the grinding process...

Does anyone actually know how the old DD's Filli's etc: were ground...
I have seen and touched the machines that I think were used after the turn of the century... I see everything now is done with belts even TI and Dovo.. Were the older razors done on Stone grinders????? those are the machines I have seen... If that is true then I would guess that is where the difference comes from...

Then again I could be wrong :)

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Sorry for being a little off the subject. Wasn't there a video of Wacker using a grinding stone setup. Two stones right next to each other and he was running the blade between the two of them?

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Originally Posted by sbrouwers

Sorry for being a little off the subject. Wasn't there a video of Wacker using a grinding stone setup. Two stones right next to each other and he was running the blade between the two of them?

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Not that I have seen, I know there is one of Dovo with two belts and the razor being ground between them...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Not that I have seen, I know there is one of Dovo with two belts and the razor being ground between them...

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I will do some looking see if I can't find it again. If so I will post it. I think it was in German.

Not a video but I found some pics Impressionen eines Handwerks

There might be a video on the page but I can't translate!!:)

Those are stones alright, see the wet and the slurry...

Not even close to the machines I saw but same principle

I haven't learned to hone or sharpen my blade, but this thread prompted me to ask myself how I judge a razor and the answer is, they way they shave when I first receive them.

My favorites have been Filarmonica, Henckels Friodur, and Le Grelot. My least favorite for some reason has been Dovo. I just haven't been able to get the kind of satisfaction everyone else seems to be getting with that very popular brand. I got one brand new, shave ready, and I got one used, shave ready.

I suspect that I will be able to get the same caliber shave with all of them once I learn to sharpen them up. I really don't feel qualified to evaluate a blade until I have learned to do this.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Those are stones alright, see the wet and the slurry...

Not even close to the machines I saw but same principle

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I know it's kinda off the subject sorry for that. But ya those are stones for sure. The pic on the first page looks like a single stone. Then the 2 together used wet. I know there is a video somewhere of him using that set up.

YouTube - Rasiermesser Herstellung / Straight Razor Manufacture I love all the safety guards on the machines. Belts and stones in this one but it's the video I was thinking of. The tension of the stones is controlled by hand that is so bad ass!!!!!

I have a high regard for the quality of vintage razors. Unless they are compromised with rust, almost to the last one, they seem to shave well. But, there are differences nonetheless...

Sometimes, I hone, say, a Dubl Duck and think I know why they are so popular. Then, I hone some odd vintage razor that is stamped "Acme Hardware, Taneyville, Missouri" which hones just as well as the Dubl Duck. Then, I hone a Torrey that doesn't hone quite as well, but does hone nicely.

I've given up! I find gems among the Acme Hardware generic vintage razors about as often as I find pedigreed well-known razors that don't hone quite as well as the Acme's.

I am sure aging and storage conditions is a factor. I am sure that it is likely that the same plant and/or procedure that created some well known razors also created the Acme Hardware generics. My conclusion is...

If it is vintage, it is quality. Few exceptions!

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Originally Posted by sbrouwers

I love all the safety guards on the machines. Belts and stones in this one but it's the video I was thinking of. The tension of the stones is controlled by hand that is so bad ass!!!!!

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Watching the whole vid it looked like those small stones were only used for the very edge contour... Looked like the huge belts were used for the secondary grinding... Also I wonder what they used for the initial grinding as if you look close the razor blanks have grinds before he starts on the big belts....

Way cool video though thanks for sharing I can't believe I have missed that one all this time :)

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Originally Posted by LarryAndro

I have a high regard for the quality of vintage razors. Unless they are compromised with rust, almost to the last one, they seem to shave well. But, there are differences nonetheless...

Sometimes, I hone, say, a Dubl Duck and think I know why they are so popular. Then, I hone some odd vintage razor that is stamped "Acme Hardware, Taneyville, Missouri" which hones just as well as the Dubl Duck. Then, I hone a Torrey that doesn't hone quite as well, but does hone nicely.

I've given up! I find gems among the Acme Hardware generic vintage razors about as often as I find pedigreed well-known razors that don't hone quite as well as the Acme's.

I am sure aging and storage conditions is a factor. I am sure that it is likely that the same plant and/or procedure that created some well known razors also created the Acme Hardware generics. My conclusion is...

If it is vintage, it is quality. Few exceptions!

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Now, I agree with this assessment..

My feeling is that sometimes there are batches that just hit it right! And I believe the difference lies in heat treatment.
There's a pretty narrow window where hardness is achieved just right... I little too long getting to the quenching medium, the steel cools just a bit too much... Who knows. Even with todays modern techniques to prevent decarburization, things go wrong.
We used to send alot of large die rings and components for professional heat treatment, and most went very well, but it was always a bit of a gamble, even with folks that earn their living at it every day!

Bur, I really don't know.... Maybe it is the phase of the moon during the birth of the steel...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Not that I have seen, I know there is one of Dovo with two belts and the razor being ground between them...

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I think this is the vid you were thinking of, Glen: how Dovo is currently making their razors (just saw this last week on the board):

YouTube - Making DOVO Straight Razors

(I hope posting the link is OK, I apologize if not).

Kent

I would think despite of progress that it would be just about impossible to measure how good a razor is, and what treat/steel etc.

Now It needs to be effective so thers less room for feeling the way to the perfect blade
Ofcourse you could get a custom but you pay for the extra time

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Originally Posted by klsmsn

I think this is the vid you were thinking of, Glen: how Dovo is currently making their razors (just saw this last week on the board):


(I hope posting the link is OK, I apologize if not).

Kent

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That is the new one there is a much older one to and a TI one...
All of them are interesting as all get out

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Originally Posted by sbrouwers

YouTube - Rasiermesser Herstellung / Straight Razor Manufacture I love all the safety guards on the machines. Belts and stones in this one but it's the video I was thinking of. The tension of the stones is controlled by hand that is so bad ass!!!!!

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What a great vid. Vintage razors vintage machines most of that kit looks like it is driven from a shaft probably connected to a water wheel thats very old school.

I have seen the film he is talking about. It is killer, I don't see how he keeps from cutting his fingers off. I will post a link to it when I find it again. I think it is a TI video.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Watching the whole vid it looked like those small stones were only used for the very edge contour... Looked like the huge belts were used for the secondary grinding... Also I wonder what they used for the initial grinding as if you look close the razor blanks have grinds before he starts on the big belts....

Way cool video though thanks for sharing I can't believe I have missed that one all this time :)

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They are drop forged my friend.

Have fun,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by sbrouwers

The tension of the stones is controlled by hand that is so bad ass!!!!!

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Not to mention buffing 4 razors at once . Now that's bad ass :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Watching the whole vid it looked like those small stones were only used for the very edge contour... Looked like the huge belts were used for the secondary grinding... Also I wonder what they used for the initial grinding as if you look close the razor blanks have grinds before he starts on the big belts....

Way cool video though thanks for sharing I can't believe I have missed that one all this time :)

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Glenn,

If you haven't seen the Dovo video below, it takes you from blank production, to heat treating, to initial stamping, to..well the whole way through. Check it out: Dovo Blades: Start to Finish

Regards,

Bodach