Does weight or grind matter?

Hi,

I was wondering if the weight or grind of a straight razor effects the performance? I have noticed that most my hallow grinds that shave well have a bit weight to them, but I have one that is really light. See attached. It takes a really sharp edge but seems to miss hairs when shaving. The chin it does very poorly on. However, If grab any other razor from my rotation the replacement will clean up where this light razor leaves off.

When I feel edge with my thumb pad it feels comparable or even sharper than other razors I have, yet it does not shave as well as them.

The only other difference I can think of the weight of razor.

Thoughts?

In these pictures there was some oxidation near the edge. It honed to a clean edge.

- Mike

It matters in terms of personal preference, but not "how well a razor will cut (shave)". More matters in terms of honing and technique than weight or grind. People claim that heavier razors shave thicker beards better... I don't think that is scientifically the case.

A full hollow can sometimes be difficult to hone, especially if it's hard like a TI. If you aren't using lots of passes over the stones with "no" pressure, you may not be getting the entire edge sharp. Pressure can be a culprit too as that the edge may not always be coming in contact with the stones due to flex. I had a difficult time with a TI that I restored for a gentleman not too long ago. Shave was exactly what you are talking about and after paying attention to exactly how the edge was contacting the stones a second time, the shave was great.

As far as performance, it's just a matter of opinion/taste.

I hope this was useful instead of a ramble...
Scott

Hi,

Thanks, That was helpful. I think I'll go back an run a course on the hones, then test again.

- Mike

If you are missing hairs when shaving, that makes me think the edge is not all the way there. I'd suggest going back and rechecking the bevel. If you are positive the bevel is fully set, then I'd say start on your next up hone (4k or 5k or whatever you use) and redo the progression from there.

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

It matters in terms of personal preference, but not "how well a razor will cut (shave)". More matters in terms of honing and technique than weight or grind. People claim that heavier razors shave thicker beards better... I don't think that is scientifically the case.

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I had a hard time - still do, making peace w/ feather light blades. At one point, I had a real hard time w/ a flexible hollow. At 5 mo, I still get better shaves w/ a 1/4 hollow or wedge. I love the blade you show here, and LOVE Gencos. I'm now salivating for one like yours w/ the hammered shank in a wedge, which I'm told is closer to a 1/4 hollow.

In terms of which does better, I strongly suspect some combination of skill and what you're comfortable with in your hand. I like some heft to a blade, and some meat on the shank. The small, thin shanks are more difficult to hold with ease and confidence. I have one small shank, flexible full hollow Genco (fluid steel) that just WANTS to shave well, so I keep and use it regularly. I find myself using more passes to get the same shave, which makes me wonder if with the heavier blades, I'm allowing myself to substitute pressure for technique - just because I can w/ the heavy blade. As I write, it's 9.5 hrs since I used a Wacker wedge. Only because I know the heavy growth areas and can stretch the skin to expose them, can I feel any return of stubble. The Mrs. thinks it's still BBS.

If, in fact, we substitute pressure for proper (feather light touch) technique, it might mean we're compressing some skin - flattening out an area that naturally has a curve. This gives each stroke a wider path to cut. If that same area were stroked w/ a feather-light touch, we'd have to take many more strokes to lightly cover all the areas in the curve that the heavy blade just flattens out. This is conjecture on my part.

That oxidation may still be in play from a structural p.o.v. On a razor like that I would be checking the edge under magnification after multiple shave tests. It can take a few honings to get to good steel even tho it may appear & work ok at first.
That you say it "feels sharper" than other razors may/may not mean there are microchips in the edge. Sharp razors feel smooth to me but YMMV.

Hi,

I just looked at under my scope, I should have before posting, It needs to go back to be reworked. The edge has the appearance of micro chips and some chewiness to it at 400x.

I have to say I'm impressed that with a tiny bit of information you all were spot on. This is such a great group! :)

Thanks,
- Mike

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Originally Posted by mbrando

Hi,

I just looked at under my scope, I should have before posting, It needs to go back to be reworked. The edge has the appearance of micro chips and some chewiness to it at 400x.

I have to say I'm impressed that with a tiny bit of information you all were spot on. This is such a great group! :)

Thanks,
- Mike

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Good follow up...

One difference between a full hollow and a less hollow
razor on the hone is the flex that pressure generates.
A half hollow will not flex the way an super thin grind will.
A solid grind is thus more forgiving on the hone.

The solution that works best for me today is a modern hone
like the Na 12K super stone and a light touch and some circles.
Circles do help tidy up an edge and remove a lot of metal
in a relative hurry.

I do not know the source of micro chips. One observation
is that a "too" fine edge gets too fragile and chips. Another
is that the coarser hones and slurry chip the edge and need
more strokes on the finer hones to compensate.

The dilution methods of honing seem to address this....

Hi,

This particular razor ground very thin. I'll try a light touch when working the hone and check progress.

- Mike

Surely the whole point of setting up a razor in the first place is making sure the whole of the spine and the whole of the edge marry up,and there are no high spots,so when honing the maximum edge and the maximun spine come in contact with the stone at any time together at the same time.How many people have razors not properly set up.The only razor i have that was sent shave ready took me ages to set up correctly,it must have sharpened with a taped spine.You cannot set up a straight razor with a taped spine,you wont know where you are.

I dont mean you can apply any pressure to the centre of the razor,you will ruin it,only either end quarter in,you are honing the spine as much as the edge ,the whole razor in fact.

Folks tape spines all the time for different reasons. if you have a decorated spine you want to protect it and 1 layer of tape does not affect the honing process. if you have various problem edges tape might be mandatory with numerous layers depending on the problem. Some grinds like wedges often require several layers if th edge has deteriorated.

The statement about not being able to set up a razor with a taped spine is simply untrue.

I hone with 1 layer of tape on all my blades. No issues here. And keeping the spine and bevel on the stone at all times is fact. But you can shift the weight a bit to the edge and from the spine. This also depends on the grind of the razor. I wouldn't do it on a 8/8 Fili. :nono:

Since my interest is almost purely for 150+ year old razors, I tape everything and regularly hone razors where the contact points between spine and edge are A) extremely narrow and B) eccentrically offset.

It's not at all uncommon for me to hone razors where the length of spine & edge touching the hone is less than 1/8th of an inch, or that needs to be tilted in some way. With practice, these take as good an edge as anything, but you do have to learn how to burn through weird bevel offsets quickly.

Essentially, all is fair in love, war, and bevel setting. Especially bevel setting.

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Originally Posted by adductum

Surely the whole point of setting up a razor in the first place is making sure the whole of the spine and the whole of the edge marry up,and there are no high spots,so when honing the maximum edge and the maximun spine come in contact with the stone at any time together at the same time.How many people have razors not properly set up.The only razor i have that was sent shave ready took me ages to set up correctly,it must have sharpened with a taped spine.You cannot set up a straight razor with a taped spine,you wont know where you are.

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I think you are confused regarding a taped spine and not being correctly set up, the tape can actually correct many years of honing abuse where the spine geometry has been altered from many years of honing a razor without this helpful little strip of plastic we all now take for granted, a normal straight razor bevel can be between 15 and 19 degrees so one layer of tape will in no way put you in or outside of those boundaries enough for you to tell the difference, I hone hundreds of razors every year and I tape everything that comes into me, I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference between a 2 brand new razors if one was honed with or without tape in a shave test.

I always tape the spine firstly for preservation sake and in most cases with vintage razors, it alleviates some of the honing gymnastics required on the old warped and twisted masterpieces.

In terms of hollow or wedge shaving better, with a shave ready edge, never found it made nor should make any difference in my experience, it's the edge that does the cutting.

I find that the balance of a razor and feel in my hand are the most important factor in getting a comfortable shave considering the razor is shave ready to my standards. I have 8/8 to 5/8 grind, steel, Damascus and stainless steel with very large scales and light scales and everything in between. When I pick up the razor and hold it in my hand, the feel and balance will tell me the pressure and angle that is best.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

That oxidation may still be in play from a structural p.o.v. On a razor like that I would be checking the edge under magnification after multiple shave tests. It can take a few honings to get to good steel even tho it may appear & work ok at first.
That you say it "feels sharper" than other razors may/may not mean there are microchips in the edge. Sharp razors feel smooth to me but YMMV.

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This is what I was thinking as well

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

That you say it "feels sharper" than other razors may/may not mean there are microchips in the edge. Sharp razors feel smooth to me but YMMV.

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I tend to disagree. When I notice it's time for a touch up it's usually not so much because the razor feels dull, it's because it starts to feel harsh and leaves my skin irritated (with coticule/Thüringer edges).

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I tend to disagree. When I notice it's time for a touch up it's usually not so much because the razor feels dull, it's because it starts to feel harsh and leaves my skin irritated (with coticule/Thüringer edges).

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I have felt that on a few razors as well.

From my research of that counters-intuitive result, I have found that when it does happen, it stems from micro-chipping.
Some razors are more proned for that than others, especially when stropped on too harsh a linen/cotton/webbing stropping material.
Most my razors though, starts to go dull without that effect.
They simply feel dull.

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Originally Posted by Birnando

I have felt that on a few razors as well.

From my research of that counters-intuitive result, I have found that when it does happen, it stems from micro-chipping.
Some razors are more proned for that than others, especially when stropped on too harsh a linen/cotton/webbing stropping material.
Most my razors though, starts to go dull without that effect.
They simply feel dull.

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The microchipping effect from stubble impact usually comes with some dulling in my experience as well, but I find the microchipping more noticeable (and troublesome).

I have relatively dry skin, so it irritates easily, which might have something to do with that.

Regards,

Pieter

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

......
Sharp razors feel smooth to me but YMMV.

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One of the more difficult lessons can be learning the difference
between sharp, perfect and dull.


When I fly I bring some durn plastic tossables. With a good lather I can
get a shave worthy of a wedding and do not risk the TSA inspectors wrath.
They then teach me lessons...

They go dull quickly but it is easy to compare with a fresh one...
easier to compare fresh and dull than even a DE. Both tossables
and DE blades allow exploring sharp, perfect and dull. Yes perfection
is impossible but there is a sweet spot for each of us.

The famous "Feather" blades are unkind and sharp for one or two shaves
then about the third shave are perfect for long enough that I end up with a
dull but smooth shave inside a week. The first two harsh shaves and the
last couple 'dull but OK' shaves never happen on a less expensive DE that
I now have half a lifetime supply of cached ;-) and yes I only get three shaves..

Open edge str8s with quality stropping sit at all stages of comfort a lot longer than
a DE or Tossable will. As a result I hone too soon or postpone it for too long and have
evolved a maintenance honing style where I hardly hone the razor from time to time
with a 10K/12k or finer hone. Splash and go with five hone stroke pairs and strop.

The darn 18K and 30K shapton glass hones are often just too sharp even with the splash+5 maintenance
touches. But I have not given up on my quest for the ultimate hone.

Stropping... and lathering... do not discount these.

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Originally Posted by Birnando

I have felt that on a few razors as well.

From my research of that counters-intuitive result, I have found that when it does happen, it stems from micro-chipping.
Some razors are more proned for that than others, especially when stropped on too harsh a linen/cotton/webbing stropping material.
Most my razors though, starts to go dull without that effect.
They simply feel dull.

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Microchipping that develops a couple shaves after honing sounds interesting.

I cannot tell from here what qualifies as harsh stropping material but I am partly of the
opinion that stropping work hardens the edge and straightens it.

If I bend a wire coat hanger it gets hard then breaks. For a razor edge that breaks it will look chipped.
If insufficiently work hardened a whisker can crumple and crush the edge and then a strop will catch
on that crumpled bit and pull it smooth or off.

Strop lightly with constant tension. A hundred laps on a strop is possibly too many.
A medium to light draw feels good to me.

Go with what works...