carbon vs stainless steel razor material

Historical fact (via use) supports carbon steel as the best alloy for achieving a razor edge. Reviewing current straight razor offerings I see stainless steel blades in the majority (discounting custom blades $$$).

My experience with knives and firearms made of stainless steel reveal some short commings with the workability and maintenance of this material over quality carbon steel.

I would appreciate comments from users of stainless steel and carbon steel straight razor users on the quality of shave and maintenance of the two alloys.

nothing wrong with well made stainless steel razors. could be great, although there aren't too many of them.

I purchased an 8/8 Fridour for my 17 year old son's Christmas present for this last year. It was honed by Lynn and shaves like a dream! Almost Scary Sharp, but as smooth as a prom queens thighs and not as risky!

I worked as a meat cutter and have Henkel, F-Dick-Forschner and even some Dexter Russel's . Some are Old Fasioned High Carbon Steel, some are what's called 'Stain Free' High Carbon Steel and some are Stainless Steel (SS).

I sharpen these on a Norton Tri-Stone Oil System. I do find the High Carbon and Stain Free High Carbon to sharpen very quickly and do hold a great edge. The Stainless Steel takes a lot longer and will eventually take a good edge but not as keen. However, I do find that the SS knives don't need re-sharpening as soon as the others.

My father was a machinist and about 12 years ago we were talking about steels and I said that SS was so hard that it was difficult to sharpen. He replied: :It's not that it's so damn hard, it's just Tough!"

For what it's worth, I hope this helps!

I don't think history shows that carbon is better than stainless for straights. Stainless just came into use later. There are some really fantastic vintage stainless razors, just as there are carbon.

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Originally Posted by cudarunner

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My father was a machinist and about 12 years ago we were talking about steels and I said that SS was so hard that it was difficult to sharpen. He replied: :It's not that it's so damn hard, it's just Tough!"

For what it's worth, I hope this helps!

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+1
The key word is Tough, some machinists say it tears rather
than cuts.

With modern man made hones used with a light touch it
is no longer the problem it once was to maintain an edge.

Also at the hardness and tempter used for straight razors
grinding not machining is often employed.

the debate over the best steel is a trick debate, diffrent cuttign reirments make both the carbon and the stainless both good metals, For my huntign knives and razors i like carbon, for the kitchen knives stanless is nicer becuause it requires less matience. But i feel that on both butcher knives and razors alike a high carbon steel is the way to go if you can keep it out of a damp area for prolonged periods.

i suppose a harder stainless edge would deform less severely and thus give a better shave longer. It might also require more stropping to bring the edge back

Much of a muchness I reckon. Carbon takes a great edge easily, but requires more touch ups to maintain it = Time

Stainless takes a great edge with more effort required...And time, but holds the edge for longer with less touch up in between... = Time.

Both steels will shave just as well as the other, providing you take the time to put a decent edge on, and maintain it, as you should with a fine edged tool.


Mick

I've got plenty of both and they both take a great edge when honed properly and both are good shavers.

mikel1942,

The proof is in the shaving :)

The stainless razors I have (Henckels Friodur 8/8, Dovo EnVogue 5/8 and Wusthof 6/8) all shave superbly (for me) - in every way as good as my best shaving carbon steel blades.

For me, that's all that matters !

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

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Originally Posted by wyldr

i suppose a harder stainless edge would deform less severely and thus give a better shave longer. It might also require more stropping to bring the edge back

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I'm pretty sure stainless is not harder than carbon steel; it may actually be softer, or at least act softer. Stainless is more resistant to abrasion. JoeD, to who I turn for metal advice, describes it as gummy.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I'm pretty sure stainless is not harder than carbon steel; it may actually be softer, or at least act softer. Stainless is more resistant to abrasion. JoeD, to who I turn for metal advice, describes it as gummy.

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Could you go into this more? I've heard from others that SS isn't actually harder than CS, but that seems contradictory to the fact that SS takes longer to hone but will hold the edge longer.

It seems to make more sense that if it takes longer to hone, but holds the edge longer that it would be harder. If this isn't the case, I'm very curious why.

You'll have to wait for a metal expert to say more for sure.

My understanding is stainless gets sort of gummy, like an extremely viscous material. This means that it resists abrasion and tends to move and tear (on a very small scale) while being honed. I have no idea how this affects edge retention, but I would think it would improve as the steel would be less brittle - that is purely a guess.

Hardness and "hard to hone" are not the same thing. It would be hard to "hone" (or file) gum, but gum is very soft. Wood is easier to "hone" (or file), but it's definitely harder than gum.

This is just what I've picked up from listening to JoeD.

it really depends on the composition of the steel i've worked with knives for thirty years and good carbon steel is much better than good stainless in my opinion, carbon blades take an edge quicker to a certain point but when it comes to polishing that edge stainless polishes quicker,carbon will sharpen to an edge no stainless blade can get near not sure why just does,i've also found carbon blades hold an edge a lot longer that can depend on the edge geometry though and once a carbon blade oxidizes properly it's as rust resistant as stainless,it all depends on what you prefer too both can be great or crap there is just too many factors to state which is better

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Originally Posted by Alucard73

it really depends on the composition of the steel i've worked with knives for thirty years and good carbon steel is much better than good stainless in my opinion, carbon blades take an edge quicker to a certain point but when it comes to polishing that edge stainless polishes quicker,carbon will sharpen to an edge no stainless blade can get near not sure why just does,i've also found carbon blades hold an edge a lot longer that can depend on the edge geometry though and once a carbon blade oxidizes properly it's as rust resistant as stainless,it all depends on what you prefer too both can be great or crap there is just too many factors to state which is better

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Great knowledge and experience. Thank you for sharing.

You can have both carbon steel and stainless steel at the the RC hardness, but carbon steel is generally tougher. There is a difference between hardness, toughness and abrasion resistant. Stainles is fairly abrasion resistant and that is what makes it take longer to hone as it is resisting the abrasive affect of the hone. SS is generally more brittle than Carbon, which has the tendecy to flex out of and back into shape if pushed to flex at all.
As has already been stated, there are many factors involved in just how a type of steel acts and reacts, much of which is due to individual chemical composition.
That's as layman as I can make it.


Mick

You guys are doing just fine working out the similarities and the differences in plain language.

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Originally Posted by markevens

Could you go into this more? I've heard from others that SS isn't actually harder than CS, but that seems contradictory to the fact that SS takes longer to hone but will hold the edge longer.

It seems to make more sense that if it takes longer to hone, but holds the edge longer that it would be harder. If this isn't the case, I'm very curious why.

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IMHO there are many characteristics to a steel that define its sharpening and edge holding behavior.
Hardness, toughness, heat treat, carbide size etc.

you can read about those characteristics here if you want:
Steel And Metallurgic Terminology Glossary

There are stainless steels and semistainless ones that are on par or may be even better than carbon steel in terms of ease of sharpening and edge retention.
Those more "exotic" steels are more popular with custom makers though and may be some of the guys here Butch for example, might chime in and give us more insight on stainless vs carbon.

From my experience all Fridours I have honed are just as easy to hone as a carbon. The one I had a little bit more work to do was a Dovo, but it was a single case .

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Originally Posted by mainaman

From my experience all Fridours I have honed are just as easy to hone as a carbon.

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+1. I have honed only one stainless Friodur, but +1 is +1.

I realize this is a long time after the last post, but........Here I goes;

I bought a folding knife about 4 years ago. It was custom made from a "High Carbon Stainless Steel" that was fused, or blended, with several alloys. Barium, Cobalt, and something else. The "nomenclature" (metal's identification) was a string of characters, about a foot long, and included numbers and letters!!! This blade is kinda' "off-colored"....looks like a pewter toned color. NOW....this thing sharpens easily......stays sharp.....etc.! The maker, W C Graves, had an ad that showed how they had "loaned" a number of these knives to guides on the YO Ranch. They were to use them for skinning, etc., but NOT to sharpen them. They were to return them when they "thought" they needed sharpening along with a list of how many and what kind of animals they had worked on. One of these knives, supposedly, had skinned/caped, in excess of 12 med to large game animals. I spent a LOT of money for this knife. It was worth it!

Bottom line is this, I would love to have a razor made from that material.....if I only knew what it is! Any ideas?

From my many years working with stainless steels as a Tool and Die Maker I hated working with stainless steel. It's a pain on the band saw, drill press, mill and lathe but atrocious on the grinders. Tapping a hole in stainless at 10-32 or smaller many times resulted in broken taps due to the metal 'galling' on the tap. That is where I perceive the metal as gummy. The metal would rather rip and tear than cut. Heat treatable stainless steel can not get up to the hardness of the better carbon steels. That said, my stainless steel razors shave just as good as my carbon steel razors and some better.

Stainless steel razors are harder to hone then Carbon steel ?????? :thinking:

The alloying elements added to stainless steel make it more abrasion resistant and, it is usually more difficult to hone. Most carbon steel is a easy to hone on almost any set of stones. Stainless, on the other hand, is temperamental.

It really depends on the type of stainless steel. 1.4110 stainless used in victornox knives is easy to hone on any stone and takes a great edge. Honing 154cm, vg-1 and vg-10 takes longer, but shaptons work fine on them. The stainless used in lower-end stainless knives can be a pain to sharpen. Shaptons and nortons will not refine the edge. I always switch to SiC or DMT hones for those. King makes a 800 grit stone specifically for honing stainless steel that I'm going to try one of these days.

All my razors are carbon, so I can only comment on stainless knives.

It comes down to carbide (crystal) stucture.

Introducing Chrome, i.e. the "stainless" part of stainless steel to a steel alloy increases the size of the carbides in the steel.

Because CS has a much finer crystal structure the building blocks that make up the structure are smaller which means it is easier to sharpen and has better ductility.

What SS manufaturers have been doing for the last 120 years or so is coming up with ways to improve the quality of SS.
- Using Vanadium and Molybdenum improve strength and reduce crystal size (most German knives are stamped CrMoV to indicate that they are using a Chrome Molybdenum Vanadium alloy). Japanese knife makers are to Vanadium Steel alloys.
- Casting process
- Tempering
- forging

Stainless steels can be made as soft as CS, but in order to get a crystal structure acceptable for holding a fine edge the treatments/alloys they will be harder than CS.

As SS is more brittle than CS it needs to be made stronger than an equivalent CS blade width otherwise it is more prone to snapping.

Please note that this is the very rough notes version and people have written doctoral theses on any one of the above points.

Dragging us kicking and screaming into Razordom, and Honing straight razors...
I don't do knives...


When honing straight razors I find no or negligible differences in honing Carbon Steel razors -vs- Stainless Steel razors..

I find this to be almost as big a myth as the overhoning one...

These statements have scared new honers since I have been a member here and I honestly giggle a bit every time I read either one...:D

Newb: My razor doesn't cut hair very well
Adviser: You probably overhoned it...

Newb: What steel should I get
Adviser: Well Carbon Steel is easier to hone, but Stainless Steel holds the edge longer


I have found no credence to either statement... :deadhorse:

Sorry but that is what I have seen in my experience...

So far the only difference I have found to be true of SS, is it rusts a little slower... :rofl2::rofl2:

There are many ways to skin a cat as there are ways to hone a razor and probably many different levels of good. I hone stainless razors differently than I do carbon steel and am more than satisfied with the results.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

....snip...
When honing straight razors I find no or negligible differences in honing Carbon Steel razors -vs- Stainless Steel razors..

I find this to be almost as big a myth as the overhoning one...

These statements have scared new honers since I have been a member here and I honestly giggle a bit every time I read either one...:D

Newb: My razor doesn't cut hair very well
Adviser: You probably overhoned it...

Newb: What steel should I get
Adviser: Well Carbon Steel is easier to hone, but Stainless Steel holds the edge longer

I have found no credence to either statement... :deadhorse:

Sorry but that is what I have seen in my experience...

So far the only difference I have found to be true of SS, is it rusts a little slower... :rofl2::rofl2:

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+1

Newb folk should visit Glenn's honing videos on Youtube.

Search for gssixgun

The methods and tools used are are not subject to
overhoning and work on quality razor steel of any type.
I should add that the pyramid method that Lynn developed
is another method that works well.

Any newb that hones with care and a light hand
on a modern water stone will do just fine.

I've given up on a $150,- Thiers-Issard Evide Sonnant razor, could have been stainless steel for all I know, simply threw the thing away. I don't know how many hours I've spent trying to get the edge back on it. It did very well for about a year (daily use, full face), but that was that. Followed youtube advice on honing (great info source), got the Norton waterstones (1000 to 8000), even got a 10K grit thinking that'd make any difference, but I just couldn't get a reasonable edge back on. About two years ago, I bought a $10 used carbon razor on Ebay (Geneva Cutlery, NY), ran it on the stones and it is perfect. I touch up the edge every 5-6months or so for a few minutes: kept the edge on for two years now. Isn't as pretty, doesn't shine or 'sing', but I can count on a perfect shave every time I use it. I would most definitely advise against stainless steel (or whatever TI uses for their Evide Sonnant for that matter), unless aesthetics are crucial, you're a pro at honing or you don't mind paying to have your razor maintained professionally.

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Originally Posted by ssmfc

I've given up on a $150,- Thiers-Issard Evide Sonnant razor, could have been stainless steel for all I know, simply threw the thing away....
.....snip.....

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Thiers-Izzard's can be hard, very hard.

I wish you had not tossed it. I would have liked to try it.
I might have swapped even for a vintage New York state razor.

I worked at Boeing years ago as a machinist. The Stainless we worked on is not the same stainless steel that good Boker, J.A. Henckels, HESS , and others have for their cutlery or razors. Regular carbon steel razors are, well, have a percentage of carbon in them that is useful and conducive to heat treating. Makes them hard and strong, and you can reduce brittleness with certain annealing. Stainless, on the other had, as used in razors, really is low in carbon and as such doesn't fit in well with heat treating. It has too much nickel content and not enough carbon to work right. However, the razor and knife folks found out quite some time ago that you can freeze certain stainless steels in liquid nitrogen and change their characteristics that way. Some call it Ice Treatment, but, it is simply cryogenic tempering and completes the conversion of Austenite to Martensite. J. A. Henckels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Read a bit more about it at the link. Makes for tough and resilient stainless for blade applications.

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Originally Posted by ssmfc

I've given up on a $150,- Thiers-Issard Evide Sonnant razor, could have been stainless steel for all I know, simply threw the thing away. I don't know how many hours I've spent trying to get the edge back on it. It did very well for about a year (daily use, full face), but that was that. Followed youtube advice on honing (great info source), got the Norton waterstones (1000 to 8000), even got a 10K grit thinking that'd make any difference, but I just couldn't get a reasonable edge back on. About two years ago, I bought a $10 used carbon razor on Ebay (Geneva Cutlery, NY), ran it on the stones and it is perfect. I touch up the edge every 5-6months or so for a few minutes: kept the edge on for two years now. Isn't as pretty, doesn't shine or 'sing', but I can count on a perfect shave every time I use it. I would most definitely advise against stainless steel (or whatever TI uses for their Evide Sonnant for that matter), unless aesthetics are crucial, you're a pro at honing or you don't mind paying to have your razor maintained professionally.

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The next time you 'Throw away' a razor, throw it my way!:) I have plenty of time on my hands! (I'll pay the shipping) Sorry to hear about your frustration! I've yet to have to try to touch up my 18 year old son's 8/8 Friodur! (He's used it since December) It may be a challenge, but as I said I have plenty of time to work on it! However, if by chance, I can't pull it off, $25-$30 sent and received is a lot less expensive than replacing it!

This thread is worthless if we cant talk about the steels types. Is not the same the 420 than the 440 or the 440C stainless steel. Whe have to know the steel type used in the straight razors. If Thiers-issard said it uses S30V instead 420 then I will bought it with confidence.

This comparison is very personal. There is no best razor in the world, too many different views. For me carbon steel (Puma) gives the softest shave. I'm for carbon steel.

Something else to think about is that steel alloys can be optimized for certain criteria, so adding a corrosion resistant criteria could well inhibit its qualities in other ways. Of course razors are not high precision items that require exacting materials and will only be used in very specific ways. They will be dropped and occasionally mishandled and the like so that differences that matter in say a die don't matter so much.

Could you make a steel that would be classed as non corrosion resistant that would out perform stainless steels, probably, but it might be impractically expensive. I remember hearing at work we bought a specific alloy block of steel for something like $3000 for a 1"x4"x4" block. But it is for tooling in our dies and as such has exacting requirements much more so than a razor does.

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Originally Posted by Zelenbakh

This comparison is very personal. There is no best razor in the world, too many different views. For me carbon steel (Puma) gives the softest shave. I'm for carbon steel.

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This really kinda sums it all up. The job of a razor is to get hair off. If your razor does that, what is so special about the kind of steel it has? Old steel, new steel, wunderstahl, unobtainium...it all comes down to the angle at the edge and the hand of the user.

"My steel is cooler than your steel..." is common human behavior. Knowing that helps to drive sales of one maker's stuff over another's.

I've honed both steels and shaved with both steels and I've noticed no difference other than SS seems to like a few more strokes on the finishing hone.

Other than that they're pretty similar.

I was also a machinist for most of my adult life. There are so many kinds of stainless and each type can vary depending on the job. My first straight edge was a Dovo carbon blade (Bismarck) it shaves very well. I have bought several more Dovo stainless. They also shave well. I can't tell much difference in the sharpening. For a tool that is used in water every day it makes much more sense to use stainless. Stainless will resist the moisture better than carbon. Both types need serious care but the stainless does give one more resistence in its environment. As a general rule (not to be confused with a perfect rule) anything that sharpens easily will lose its edge easier. You will be happy with either type.