Damascus steel

so I took my dovo to work yesterday to show one of the seamen there who is interested in learning to shave like a real man... and one of the petty officers I work with came out to look as well. They loved the designs on the spine and when I mentioned wanting a damascus steel blade one day the PO said they get dull fast and the fact that the steel is folded it creates natural flaws in the edge so while pretty to look at they aren't very practical. Is he right, is there any truth to what he said at all, or was he just talking to make noise and seem smart???:shrug:

It depends on the craftmanship. The Damascus steel straight razors look awesome and give good shaves just like any other well crafted straight razor. Lots of variables involved in crafting a straight razor and getting a great shave.

Sounds like a lot of noise to me and then some.

Pabster

Let me guess it was some guy who just made PO3 and thinks he knows everything??

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Originally Posted by LAsoxfan

Let me guess it was some guy who just made PO3 and thinks he knows everything??

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LOL no actually his rate is EN1. so he's been around for a while and he collects knives, but he does seem to "know it all". but what he said went against all I had read about Damascus steel. so I figured I'd ask those of you that know first hand about a DS razor.

I wouldn't know anything about that theory.

The dozen or so I have behave pretty much like my other ones.
They are able to take and maintain an edge just as well as my carbon and stainless razors.

Perhaps he has bought or heard of the "Damascus" blades you can find on ebay?

If I remember correctly, someone on here bought one for testing, and the conclusion was that the blade was pretty much useless as a razor.

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Originally Posted by Birnando

If I remember correctly, someone on here bought one for testing, and the conclusion was that the blade was pretty much useless as a razor.

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I have 'damascus' razors (actually pattern welded steel) made by Livi, TI, Joe Chandler and Robert Williams and they are all great shavers of the highest quality. They take an edge as well as any high carbon or stainless razor I've shaved with.

There are, OTOH, damascus razors found on ebay and elsewhere , that are cheap imitations made in Pakistan, China , wherever .... these can be found in our "Razors to Avoid" list in the SPR Wiki. If it seems like it is too good to be true, price wise, it definitely is.

It really depends who made the razor. Some of us still chuckle when we remember the story of one big talking knife and razor maker with decades of experience, who sold a damascus razor few years ago only to tell the customer later 'I never said it will shave'. AFIK he still hasn't figured out how to work that metal and is coming up with funky ways around it.

OTOH we have several people on the forum who made perfectly functional damascus razors right from the beginning.

Thanks guys! anyone own any of Tim Zowda's work? I've seen some of his on classicshaving.com

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Originally Posted by SmoothcheekStu

Thanks guys! anyone own any of Tim Zowda's work? I've seen some of his on classicshaving.com

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Yes, I have a couple Zowada's in damascus steel.
Fantastic craftmanship, and among my very best razors.

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Originally Posted by Birnando

Yes, I have a couple Zowada's in damascus steel.
Fantastic craftmanship, and among my very best razors.

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ohhh I want one soo bad... but i can't bring myself to pay $800 for a razor quite yet. maybe one day :rolleyes:

+1 with Birnando, I have a couple of Tim's razors and they are first rate.

I also have a bunch of Damascus or Pattern Welded straight razors and they are wonderful shavers.

The only thing you need to watch out for is with a deeply etched Damascus as it will rust easily in humid environments, if you don't keep a layer of oil on them in my opinion.

Have fun,

Lynn

I would tend to disagree with the opinion that Damascus isn't as good. If you look at the top custom razor craftsman, they all make Damascus razors. And arguably one of, if not the best, knifesmith in the world Bob Kramer makes tons of custom kitchen knives out of Damascus. In fact his knives sell for thousands of dollars each. I don't think people would be willing to shell out that kind of money for a kitchen knife or the price that razors like Robert Williams and Joe Chandler fetch if they were of inferior quality. Ultimately if it is made by a skilled craftsman Damascus will work just as well as any carbon or stainless razor.

Don't listen to Lynn and the others. Your friend is right. They are terrible razors. Tell him you'll give him a couple of bucks for every true Damascus he can find just to help him out and take them off his hands.

Stu,

A good friend lent me one of his Zowada Damascus razors for several months. It was a sweet shaver and it tore me up to have to relinquish it. Sometimes I dream at night that it's still in my shave den and am disappointed when I awake in the morning to find it's not there.

It was great while it lasted...

"Damascus" steel got its name from Sri Lankan knives and swords that found their way into the spice road from the Red Sea near Damascus, so the "Damascus" in Damascus Steel is a misnomer right up there with the Turkey bird and for the same reason.

Pattern welded steel is where two steels with different properties (usually soft and hard) are repeatedly folded over each other. Speaking to a metallurgist a while ago and he explained that the best quality pattern welded swords and knives were from the Vikings. The Japanese who make a big fuss about their pattern welding were forced to adopt the process due to the very poor quality of iron ore in Japan.

Damascus steel is dependent on the quality of the two parent steels for its end quality. You could make a pattern welded steel out of Zeepk and Gold Dollar razors and you'd still end up with shite.

I haven't heard about it in razors, but there are plenty of knives being made with pattern welded steel cladding. So the blade can look as if it is made of Damascus steel, when in fact it isn't. Shun knives are the classic example of this. With the Shun knives there is a problem when you hit the cladding if you sharpen them back that far because the cladding isn't actually knife steel, although you'll only hit that problem if you're using the knife professionally because a home user will never sharpen a knife that many times.

Because of the extreme thinness of razor blades I doubt that pattern welding would provide any practical benefit to a razor. If there is any benefit you'd be wanting a pattern weld with at least 64 folds.

Ann Feuerbach is one of the most knowledgeable about Sri Lankan wootz. The Talwar region on the Indian subcontinent is probably better known for wootz steel, but given the trade routes and smith's propensities for rapidly borrowing better technology it doesn't surprise me to see it in neighboring places.

The Japanese derived their metal skills from the Koreans, who had an amazing sword culture, who derived their skills from the Chinese. The history books do not do justice to the possibility that the Chinese had a working iron culture long before the traditional view that the Hittites and other southwest Asian cultures did. But warring states and irregular historical records have probably not helped keep that in the regular pool of knowledge. Any culture that knew how to manufacture bronze would have known about iron, as it was used as a flux. Steel is simply the byproduct of cooking iron in a carbon rich environment.

In this day and age, Pauly, "hard and soft" just don't apply any longer. It is dependent on the parent steels qualities. Practically all modern PW makers use tool steels for the PW stuff that is intended to cut. Besides, the heat treatment will not allow for the hard and soft layer thing unless very special temperature controls and alloying mixtures are considered. I know of maybe four or five fellows who have the knowledge and the tooling to do it. Look up carbon migration or carbon averaging and discuss that with your metallurgist. He, or she, will get right onto the concept.

I am impressed with their knowledge of the Viking blades, but it was most likely the Franks or Frankish steel that made them that good. The Vikings would have been raiding the seacoast through that whole region and wherever they went I'm sure they adopted better stuff as they found it. The Franks were well known enough to even attract the attention of the Persians, who knew all about the wonders of wootz, and wanted the Frankish blades as a more desirable steel. It had something to do with surviving war during a Russian winter. Despite what we'd like to remember about Napoleon and Hitler's problems, it seems to have been an issue for anyone wanting to invade Russia throughout history. The better blades would survive the cold.

Razors will function quite well with PW steel and do not have to be clad or have a high carbon core. It's all about the aesthetic and not any metallurgical advantage. Using an outside slab of cheaper or lesser quality steel has been a fine tradition among smiths for as long as steel has been available. That is a practical notion because the good steel was far more valuable at the cutting edge and for the most part, smiths are cheap practical types and don't waste good resources unless there's a lot of money involved.

A little more time with the search function and I'm sure some of these concepts will be a little clearer. There's been loads published now about the myths that still persist.

Try here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/show-...-damascus.html

I'm curious why 64 is an important number?

The explanation I was given about Viking pattern welding is that Scandinavian iron ore is the highest quality in the world. It's why Hitler invaded Norway in 1940 and why many high end Japanese knife makers use Sandvik steel for their best knives.

On the 64 folds, most PWs I know follow the 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 ... progression, so if there was a metallurgical advantage to using a pattern weld my supposition is that you would need a fairly high fold number to get that advantage in a thin hollow ground blade. Most true pattern welded kitchen knives are 16 or 32 fold.

Here is one of Joe Chandler's Wootz razors. IME the Wootz razors don't have as well defined a pattern as some of the more often seen pattern welded blades but it is a great shaver. I've also got a couple of TI dams which are rumored to be a Wootz steel. Not sure about that. :beer2:

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Originally Posted by Pauly

The explanation I was given about Viking pattern welding is that Scandinavian iron ore is the highest quality in the world. It's why Hitler invaded Norway in 1940 and why many high end Japanese knife makers use Sandvik steel for their best knives.

On the 64 folds, most PWs I know follow the 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 ... progression, so if there was a metallurgical advantage to using a pattern weld my supposition is that you would need a fairly high fold number to get that advantage in a thin hollow ground blade. Most true pattern welded kitchen knives are 16 or 32 fold.

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Swedish iron ore has been traditionally accepted as the best. The English bought it and worked it in Sheffield and that's one of the reasons for their reputation in that area. It may well be one of the strongest economic reasons for Swedish neutrality during WWII, so they could keep selling iron ore to anyone who needed it. And they were left alone by everyone so as to not spoil the source.

Just to help me understand your reference system. I think you're talking about the number of layers rather than folds. But there is a difference. It may be technical, but it does explain the process better.

If I start with a two layer billet and fold it once, I have four layers. Then fold again the second time now I have eight. Using this method I would have a billet at 64 layers with six welds and five folds. Doubling a two layer laminated billet 64 times would produce a layer count nearly impossible to see. The physical effect would be more on the order of a homogenized bar of steel rather than patterned.

The advantage that is alleged between the "hard and soft" layer business is completely lost by the time four welds have occurred. Carbon migration will completely even out the carbon content between the two differing pieces making it equivalent to a single carbon content bar of steel with a pattern. Using a 1075 steel with 2% nickel (the contrast material) and 1095 in equal quantities, I would end up with a billet at about 0.85% carbon. All the layers will act like 1085 in the heat treat and they will all be hard. There is no means to defeat this process using usual smithing methods. There are exceptions, but as I said earlier, those folks are both few and far between in terms of having both the knowledge and the equipment to achieve it.

ln terms of the Japanese methods of processing tamahagane into a usable lump of steel for swords or tools or razors. The processing of producing a bloom of steel leaves a material that is full of porosity and bits of slags and sand and charcoal that has to be processed to clean it. It does take a bunch of welding and folding and welding and folding to homogenize that material. That's the source of that legend. They are kneading (the correct word in Japanese too, just like a baker making bread dough to completely mix the ingredients) the steel to clean it. The layer count is irrelevant except in Gassan school blades, but that is a deliberate mix of two different ore sources, minor alloying elements for color, not different steels to create a pattern and layer counts are most often in the 1,000 range after 10 welds.

Now where the hard and soft stuff might play a role is when a Japanese smith or Norwegian builds a blade that has a simple three layer construction. The outside two slabs do not need to be hard when done but the good steel core does. The less valuable materials will add toughness and flexibility while the core steel gets nice and hard and retains cutting ability. But those are technically three layer blades. Unless you use PW materials for the outside slabs like Shun. But, the softer stuff never forms the cutting edge so there is no hard or soft at the edge anyway. That construction is meant to improve the toughness of the blade when the hard steel core would crack. But no one should be using their knife or sword as a pry bar regardless. :nono:
:beer1:

The explanation of the number of folds is appreciated. I've never understood the numbers on that before reading your post. :beer1:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I'm curious why 64 is an important number?

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Well, Mike, it's like this: your governor just had his 64th birthday and caught up with me. And there you have it.

:beer2:

Oh, and this Vikings and the Damascus thing: it's about time we got credit where credit is due; this lutefisk thing will only last so long.

:beer1:

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Originally Posted by Bruce

this lutefisk thing will only last so long.

:beer1:

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Ah, lutefisk, that never gets old Sir:)

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Just to help me understand your reference system. I think you're talking about the number of layers rather than folds. But there is a difference. It may be technical, but it does explain the process better.

ln terms of the Japanese methods of processing tamahagane into a usable lump of steel for swords or tools or razors.

Now where the hard and soft stuff might play a role is when a Japanese smith or Norwegian builds a blade that has a simple three layer construction. The outside two slabs do not need to be hard when done but the good steel core does. ... That construction is meant to improve the toughness of the blade when the hard steel core would crack. But no one should be using their knife or sword as a pry bar regardless. :nono:
:beer1:

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It is the number of layers, not the number of folds that I've seen referenced. Thanks for the explanation as I'd never thought of it through properly.

I remember having a conversation with a knifemaker about tamahagane once. He went to Japan to study their traditional methods. His conversation with his mentor went something like this.
Westerner *Picks up tamahagane* "Why are you keeping the slag?"
Japanese Mentor "No, that's what we'll be using to make knives with"
W *Thinking there is a translation error* "So this is the leftover slag?"
JM "No this is what we use to make the knives"
W "You actually use this stuff to make your knives from?"
JM "Knives made traditionally we do."

As for your last point, I think some Viking beserker in the olden days would be quite interested in getting a blade that wouldn't snap as he crowbarred it out of someone else's skull.:beer2:

Using the method Mike mentioned, 64 folds would result in 36,893,488,147,419,103,232 layers of steel. :dropjaw:

It could have just as easily been the Beatles "When I'm 64..." It's amazing how quickly the numbers add up.

That's a good story about the tamahagane. One I've witnessed several times in slightly different circumstances. A picture can be worth a lot. Here's a good link: YouTube - Making Steel from Dirt

Since then, there have been a lot of folks making their own attempts at this. There are no real secrets if you know where to look.

Ahem, for some reason the rest of Scandinavia readily forgets that the Original Vikings were Danes. Credit where due.

Ya'll are welcome to have my lutefisk. I'll eat raw fish before I eat it spoilt. Now where's the wasabi? :p

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Originally Posted by HNSB

Using the method Mike mentioned, 64 folds would result in 36,893,488,147,419,103,232 layers of steel. :dropjaw:

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Yeah who needs LHC when you can layer the elementary particles that make up the matter by just pounding the steel :)

With 1cm thick billet (or 1" if you prefer) 25 folds give you a homogenous steel - the power of the exponent :)