Is there an advantage to a 6/8 blade over the 5/8 blade, especially for a beginner?
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Is there an advantage to a 6/8 blade over the 5/8 blade, especially for a beginner?
The Wiki link at the top has some great information, this was taken straight from it:
What makes a good starter razor?
Size = 6/8
A wider blade is easier to keep flat on the strop, which is very important for a beginner. 6/8 is also dead center on the size chart, so you can decide which direction to go on your second razor. Finally, it has some heft for those less than confident first strokes, and is still easy to handle.
Grind = Half hollow
Again dead center on the chart, so you can decide which direction to go after your first razor. A half hollow grind offers enough heft for beginner shaving, yet also has some flexibility for comfort.
Round point
A round point is a little safer, anyway, not a lot but every little bit helps at first.
A 6/8 is slightly easier to keep flat on a strop though IME this is negligible (stops being at 4/8 though, again IME). 6/8 is in the middle in terms of size which can give a beginner an idea of which way they'd like to go in terms of future acquisitions. An advantage? Depends on your bank balance I suppose.
They are ever so slightly easier to strop...but aside from that it's all personal preference.
5/8 are everywhere, you have to look a little harder for anything bigger. (Not hard to find, but "harder" to find.)
I wouldn't let it sway a decision on what to buy either way.
I'm not ignoring you P.M. ...I'm just wasn't sure what/if you where asking.
I have a preference for 6/8 as a good shaver. It has a little heft to it. I think the idea of buying a mid-sized razor as a baseline for your next razor is false logic. I find full hollows shave better and I think your first razor should be a good razor over any other characteristic. I think the advice in the Wiki is just dumb.
I like razors with good shank size, that is important as well as balance and heft.
Otherwise, if you think it makes sense to buy your first razor to help you determine what you want as a second razor, that's cool too. I'm just not sure you'll know what to buy second. Would you use the same logic to buy a car? Buy a 4 door sedan so you can decide what kind of car to buy next?
5/8 razors are really nice too.
I think my sense of how important the grind is leads me more concern than size really.
All my best shavers are 6/8, and I would recommend a really good shaver, even for a beginner.
There is nothing wrong with the thousands of guys who have started out with a vintage blade of whatever size they could walk in the door with. I'd argue that more guys have failed at straight shaving because they took too much evaluating meaningless variables and failed to focus on the actual skills.
I think the guidelines in the Wiki are as good as anything for a newbie who has no points of reference and comes here looking for them. Sure, to say, "just get a good shaver" is a correct answer but it doesn't really give them a lot to go on. I agree that ultimately it's down to the individual to make up their own mind and acquire good technique, as I did from my first (5/8 full hollow) razor but don't really see how that makes the advice in the Wiki, dumb or even an addition of meaningless variables:shrug:.
Maybe yes & maybe no. As a beginner has no real point of reference for comparison it is hard to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbs
Maybe if you have large hands a 6/8 is more comfortable to manipulate but maybe not. Ergonomics is a consideration tho.
I find the thin tangs on some 4/8 very awkward in my stubby hands. I also dislike large wide scales for the same reason... But 5/8 or 6/8 I really can't argue for one over the other. I'm not a beginner so maybe my opinion is not appropriate but if it feels manageable in your hand at least that's one problem solved.
I'm a newb and I have a range of razors from 3/8 to 7/8.
I find the smaller razors to be more agile and more precise. The 3/8 is one that I'd use if I had facial hair and needed to trim specific areas. Apart from that I find my 4/8s to be best for me, and I have no problems with my 5/8. I find my 6/8 and 7/8s are too cumbersome for a comfortable shave, and I will sell them off and consolidate my collection into the smaller sizes.
I'm using quality 'name' razors (Wostenholm, Joseph Rogers, Henckels, Wester Bros, Giesen & Forsthoff) so I don't think I'm being biased by different quality in manufacture.
Caveat: I am a chef and I have had a lot of experience with using sharp blades for fine manipulation before starting shaving with cut throats.
Edit: As Oz says nothing beats holding a blade in your hands and finding which is more comfortable for you.
There isn't a world of difference between 5/8 and 6/8, they are the 2 most common sizes. Once you get to 4/8 or as high as 13/16+, there is a a noticeable difference.
Remember the grind will affect the shave more. I'd personally go for the 5/8.
Well, I have a line on 2 new DOVO razors the 5/8 full hollow ground is $69.95 and the 6/8 is $74.95. They say double hollow ground, but I think for the purpose we can figure that they are full hollow ground. The also had some other DOVO razors that are half-hollow ground. These are both new with black or white handles.
I have 2 razors I bought at a local antique store for $17.00 each. The Wadwsworth is slightly above 5/8 but not so big as 6/8 it is 0.718" and the WISS is 0.588" not quite 5/8, but close.
5/8= 0.625"
7/8= 0.750" (or 3/4")
Either of these feel fine in my hands. The Wadsworth XLNT is perhaps the better of the two. Both have good scales and both fit inside without any drag, looseness or catching on either side of the scales.
I also bought a A.J. Henkels on ebay for starting bid. It was listed as a "Henkles" with the "le" transposed, which might have thrown off the searchers a bit, and got it for $29.99, so it wasn't bad price and blade and scales look nice.
Neither of the two I bought at the antique store are, what I could consider, shave ready. But, I'll get some hones soon and see what can be done. I would like to get one shave ready razor and sometimes bidding and getting 2-3 razors on ebay is, well, about the same money spent on one brand new DOVO razor that will have a lifetime of use and then some in it. I did hone (with the Norton HS4) my Wadsworth and strop it the other day. I shaved most of my face, but it was kind of draggy. It certainly grabs my chest hair about 1/2" above the root and cuts it when pulled across it, but I'm not shaving my chest or belly (although I seem to have good luck there!) HA!
Below are the two "antique" store finds of mine. For 17.00 and tax I'm not out a lot on them. WISS is the bottom one and smaller of the 2 blades.
http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/misc/razors/razors2.jpg
The Henkels that is to come yet....
http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/misc/r....a.henkels.jpg
Thank you ALL for the insights and suggestions to a newcomer!! I much appreciate it!
Absolutely completely agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDavis11
The vast majority of razors out there are 5/8 full hollows. There is a reason for that. Apparently a few guys thought they worked just fine.
Gibbs, I read your previous account of the cruelty you perpetrated on a razor with a belt sander. Your subsequent posts indicate a continued interest in these toys so I'd like to help. If you send me one of your recent acquisitions, I will hone it up and mail it back to you the next day. You'll only need to pay postage. PM me if interested.
Since I wrote the "Dumb" logic in the Wiki let me take a few seconds to explain it to you... :D
Writing something like "Buy anything, then get it honed" is just not a good option for a beginner, because that is "exactly" what they will do...
If you give an actual objective perhaps they will look a little harder and get a bit more educated before sinking money into a bunch of ebay junk that will never shave...
Again these are just recommendations, they are not written in stone, there is very little difference in 6/8 and 5/8 on the strops, but it is there, and they do have just a touch more heft, and a slightly stiffer blade does help just a tiny bit in an inexperienced hand.. -But- way more importantly they are harder to find, used, they are not out there on e-bay and the antique stores by the hundreds for in-experienced shoppers to buy junk... They have to slow down and actually look, the more they look the more they learn...
They are also very easy to find brand new from many -Reputable- vendors that sell them "Shave Ready" for around $75 so in the long run perhaps there is a bit of logic in there after all... ;) The more interaction a newb has with experienced people the more likely he is to succeed..
10-4 ! Thanks!
Now I wanted to add another thought. Many of those razors on ebay (and there ARE many), we once owned by actual shavers that used them 30, 50, 80 or more years ago. Some used a lot, others not so much, and some neglected over the years. Point is some were used by professionals, such as barbers, but there were many that were used by everyday ordinary folks...farmer, rancher, business people, etc. Lots of these folks wanted a close shave and that was about it, except for a few older SE and DE razors. New to them at the time. I started shaving with a DE Gillette razor. Point is, that these folks did not have an Internet or gracious folks, like Utopian, offering to hone any of their razors. They did it themselves and some were good and some not so good, but it was something they had to learn or pay a barber, which, even though it was not unreasonable, was not always possible because of the travel of the day.
I grew up in NW Nebraska on a farm/ranch 16 miles from town. We went once a week to town and sometimes once in 2-3 weeks. I remember as a very young boy watching Herm strop his razor, put on the lather and shave with his straight razor. Herm was an Uncle of the folks my Mom worked for and was in his late 70s, and this was back in 1958 ish. I watched in fascination as he shaved. After while, he was older and went to the nursing home where the straight razor was "retired". He left me his old crock shaving mug and badger brush after he died. I still use it today. Those folks in the country had only themselves to hone and strop a razor for the most part. So if they did a good job, great, but what you find on ebay is from the countless left overs of the "everyday" normal shaver, whether he was good at keeping a razor in shape or not.
Now, herein lies the wonderful Internet with sources all over the place and folks from all walks of life still using straight razors for shaving. From someone that has come from watching as a kid to using a Double Edge, to the Injector (remember those?), to the disposable single and multiple blades , I look now at this razor.
I really had no idea that there were 5/8, 6/8, rounded, full hollow, half-hollow, wedge, or all the sizes and shapes in-between. I figured a straight razor would be, more or less, simply one style of razor. It's not. It's like walking into some well stocked wine shop and seeing all the brands and all the different styles and trying to figure out what you are going to like best.
Thanks very much for allowing my indulgence of reminiscing, and I hope, perhaps, that some other newbie that stumbles across this will get enlightened as to 4/8, 5/8, 6/8 and such. I know there is the "wiki" but since this was only 1/8" difference, I thought surely there must be some real difference between these two, or else why make them? Preference is a personal view and really, this thread is pretty much a personal idea on what benefits either of these blades would make.
Reason is I'm looking at buying a DOVO in either a 5/8 or 6/8 width, New, so just getting opinions.
I just think recommending a 5/8 full hollow for a newbie is best because it is the easiest to find and buy. It is far and away the most common blade on SRD. Brand new and Shave ready right to your door.
I know I spent a lot of time trying to track down a 6/8 half hollow in the beginning before finally settling on a 5/8 full hollow.
It did have the effect that I second guessed my decision to buy a 5/8 the whole time and kept searching for a 6/8 half hollow.
Recommending a 6/8 half hollow is a great and subtle way to introduce Razor Acquisition Disorder into the sub-conscience of the newbie.
The logic for 6/8 half hollow is sound if only they were as easy to get a hold of.
--Shoki
Gibbs, whatever you decide upon take Ron/Utopian up on his offer. A very smart move!
And please for the love of God and everything Holy, keep it away from power tools!:cry:
Shoki, I think that was the whole point. Ebay is FULL of 5/8 used razors, but I have found via google and Glen's help a few places that have the Dovo 6/8 new for about 74-78 dollars. Lynn at Straight Razor designs even has them at that price and professionally honed and ready to shave, not just factory honed. By "just" looking for a 6/8 one generally gets pointed into a direction of quality NEW stuff, rather than Grandpa Bob's overly used and misused, and very neglected razor that hasn't seen the light of day in 3 decades. Nothing wrong with new, but to someone just starting out, you can end up with more than a NEW razor in used razrors that "don't quite fit the bill" category.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoki
Oh, and nun2sharp, I will keep razors away from my belt sander. But, it was not like I was starting out on 220 grit. I started with a well used 1000 grit German belt and applied VERY light pressure against the razor, making quick even strokes. Then I used the German leather belt and again, used light touches. Finished off with my old leather belt and it will now snag and cut hairs on my chest quite easily but I don't hav the hones to have brought it to a finer degree before belt stopping. Before, and it is a 17.00 razor, it wold not even cut the hair on my arms, or chest.
I have a Puma Soligen hunting knife that I sharpened on my 1x30 belt sander all the way through leather belt and it will skim the hairs off your arms, but won't do a decent job shaving. They really made some nice steels in Germany!!:)
Glen,
You've had me thinking all day. Sucks really. I'm still not a complete fan of the advice but I think the size idea makes sense, the grind part I'm still swaying on.
I think buying a 6/8 tells you the same thing any other razor tells you, that you need to learn how to hone. But, I think buying a half-hollow tells you very little about full hollows . . .
but I'm starting to understand the thought process.
I'd really like a link to a new Dovo 6/8 half-hollow if you have one.
Anyway, in thinking about what I think is the most important aspect for a beginner razor it would be, in this order:
1) A straight shank with solid jimps (for ease in stropping)
2) Abililty to arrive honed (I think the word "shave ready" is a misnomer that overlooks stropping)
3) Full hollow grind
4) Well balanced
5) Round point
6) Of aesthetic value to the purchaser
7) Holding re-sale value
Size of the blade doesn't even make the list, for me.
Food for thought, maybe.
BTW, when I peruse the WIKI that entire section doesn't come up anywhere.
It is actually linked from the Wiki
Shopping list for beginners - Straight Razor Place Wiki
to the FAQ :)
Frequently Asked Questions - Straight Razor Place Wiki
I think near everything you wrote is in there, but not all together in one place...
I really like the Straight Tang recommendation as Thumb Notches are a learned experience :)
There is a pic of the Dovo 6/8 in there but I believe it was decided that linking to one would be advertising :(
In my opinion the issue with the grind is that most people are pretty bad at shaving when they start. They really don't have the correct angle and the correct pressure so they push much harder than necessary.
An extra hollow grind razor doesn't do well under these conditions, in my experience it shaves much worse. A less flexible grind is I think a bit more forgiving to inadequate technique.
But then the less feedback one gets from a razor the slower the progress they make in correcting their mistakes and improving.
So it always seemed to me like a trade off between quicker gratification and more efficient learning. If this is correct that means it very much depends on the person what would be better for them. Somebody with subpar motor skills will probably give up on straight shaving long before they learn to handle a razor. Or somebody else can be held back unnecessarily long and learn bad habits just because the razor does the job well enough.
The thing, as you all noticed, is that whenever we write something specific sooner or later it gets treated as the only right way to do things.
When I converted the sticky posts into beginner's guide I intentionally tried to be as general as possible and point out the important things. Yet, from my observations no matter how often we tell people "don't buy a resto project on ebay, have somebody experienced hone your razor, don't 'practice honing' on a junk razor etc." people keep coming to the forum with 'look what a deal I got on ebay. is it a good razor, how do I hone it?'
Yet anything specific like 5/8, or 6/8, or half hollow, or full hollow, or Dovo, or TI, or gold dollar, or round point, or jimps.... you name it, shortly becomes a dogma.
I just think the best is to provide the best possible information and then allow everybody learn the way they like. There are always those who need to spend a couple hundred dollars on junk before it occurs to them that with the same amount of money they could've long ago bought any expensive razor they desire and if it turned out that they prefer something else it still would've been much cheaper to resell it at a small loss and buy that other thing... At the end of the day everybody makes their own choices and deals with the consequences.
After reading the Wiki I went in search of the legendary 6/8 half hollow...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbs
I wanted a brand new, never used, clean, 6/8 half hollow. I also wanted to buy it from SRD and I wanted it to be shave ready.
SRD does not carry the half hollow version.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post678148
http://www.dovo.com/pdfs/kap2_rasiermesser.pdf
It seems that Vintage Blades and Superior Shave do carry it but I didn't know it at the time.
All that said I like the 5/8 full hollow razor just fine. I am used to it now and so far it is most comfortable to me.
I feel like the wiki should be changed to reflect razors easily available to the newbie. The idea of an unused, clean, professionally honed razor is really important to a new shaver. It just takes so many of the variables out of the equation.
Thank you,
--Shoki
I've read (and experienced) that wedge grinds are more forgiving to the newbie, both on the face and on the strop. Just an idea.
Me
yeah, plus you get that extra honing later on. if it were me once the razor needs it, i'd do a touch up and if it doesn't quite work i'll use the free honing option to get it back to shape, and then try again next time it needs the touch up. it's not a hard thing to maintain your razors, but never hurts to have a fallback safety net (well it's always there for a $20 or so, but free is even better).
I think regardless of your skill or light touch or worn out belts, if you are working on a slack belt you will introduce a convexity to the edge that will take time & effort to remove on the next stone , when you get to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbs
Not a problem with knives as the angle is freehanded & convex edges are normal but not with straights unless you're in Europe where I believe pasted strops are more the norm. :)
That is tru, Oz from Oz. The belts are not the flat plane of the stone. I just got done a few mintues ago sharpening some knives fur General Manager of the winery brought me at work. They are his mother-in-laws knives. BOY, does she have some nice kitchen knives. 2 of them were a J.A Henckels with the dancing twins on the blade, 2 were a Ed. Wusthof Driezack (Grand Prix) from Soligen Germany, (they had a trident) and the last was a skinny long, I guess, bread knife, 7/8" wide by about 14 inches long. That had SABATIER on the side and there was an Elephant also and the words France. They were a bit of a challenge as the last person had done a not too good of a job, and those Henkels and Triden were really good metal. But now I am a bit balder on my stomach.. LOL They all shave, even that long skinny SABATIER knife.
I, and others, would contest this point. I find round points nick me more than any other style. I'd recommend starting with anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by MNstCloud
6/8 just feel better in my hand.
I hope he gets along well with her, especially now her knives are shaving sharp :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbs
The 6/8 half hollow advice in the wiki caused me a lot of angst when I started a year ago.
My recommendation is to caution people that sharpness matters most, list some pro's and con's of the grinds and sizes (momentum vs fits under nose easier, more forgiving of too much pressure vs shaves closer, etc), and list some things to watch out for on used razors (warp, uneven honing, frowns, screwed-up temper, etc).
I'm also suprised by the number of people who post questions that make it obvious they are scarred to death to try honing their razor on their own. I recommend updating the Wiki to explain that honing an ebay razor takes a lot of expertise, but refreshing the edge of a new razor is pretty easy. I'd go so far as to say that a 12K Naniwa finishing stone should be used as a barbers hone every week (or a pasted balsa strop if they are on a budget) - and should be considered essential equipment just like a brush and strop.
That 12K Naniwa Finishing Stone looks very inviting. I found details of it over at royalshave.com Would be a nice stone to have for sure!
Yes, he does. *S* I have met "Bets" short for Elizabeth, and she is a charming wonderulf elderly woman. She and her husband had a store in Saugatuck that they sold chef supplies from as well. So I imagine they got these knives at a discount years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I got 4 more knives from them, and 2 more were the A.J. Henckels. Great knives to sharpen....TOUGH... but when I get done you can cut the hairs off your arms with them. They loved them and gave me a 50.00 check for the work.
Well said, John. I think overtime you'll see that when you finally "get it" that a lot of misunderstanding and confusion is caused by the "noise" of an internet forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG10