Japanese razor advice

tamahangane vs iwasaki


I've did some reading on the fourm reading tamahangane as the best of Japanese razors.
But found one on ebay used.
Questions)
1) Between the 2 what would be prefered. Personal or as razor companies.
2) to horn these myself what type of stones would I need. The store guy stuggested 12000. Just put water and slide away.
3) horn is done just as Euro razors.
4) time limit or no. of strokes.
5) 50mm length vs 60mm length.

Iwasaki is cheaper and is new. While Tamahagane is used and well price is well over 500. I've extended the guy an offer on ebay but now have heard back.
Advice opinions all welcome.
~Raijin.

Iwasaki did/does make tamahagne razors, so you can have both. Iwasaki is a maker (well, I believe his former apprentice now makes the razors), and tamahagne is a type (actually types, I guess) of steel.

Iwasaki makes top notch razors and I'd go with that if I were shopping for a kamisori.
I think the current Iwasaki smith uses only swedish steel for the razors, the old Iwasaki used to use Tamahagane.

Some Iwasakis are Tamahagane,not all,the Tama Iwasakis are far more costly than vintage blades.
The ebay seller of the above blade knows his stuff but on very rare occaisions you see a true vintage tama go off on the bay for around the 300 mark,one did last sunday night.

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Originally Posted by darkraijin

.
2) to horn these myself what type of stones would I need. The store guy stuggested 12000. Just put water and slide away.
3) horn is done just as Euro razors.
4) time limit or no. of strokes.

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This is all over the place, the only thing that looks about right is the 12k stone and even that is questioable since it is a used razor... On a used razor you have no idea as to what the bevel is like...

I have a Kamisori Honing Video up that is pretty straight forward but really the trick is in the pressure and that comes from practice...
Honing these looks really easy in all the Vids, but in practice it is not, you really stand a good chance of wrecking the razor by doing it wrong....

+1
Gs Video is fantastic to say the least,using it even I can make a Kamisori shave ready.
But I would never Hone one of my Tamahaganis myself,are just to darn rare and Valuable.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

+1
Gs Video is fantastic to say the least,using it even I can make a Kamisori shave ready.
But I would never Hone one of my Tamahaganis myself,are just to darn rare and Valuable.

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I have a Iwasaki kamisori probably out of Swedish steel. It's my sharpest razor and one of my favourites. Even though I have a Oozuku jnat I am afraid to hone my kamisori here because I don't want to ruin the razor.

I think most guys don't realize how different honing these things can be. The more extensive the honing required the more radical the approach can be. I just finished honing up the kamisori for the razor pass around "General Tojo" and it needed extensive bevel work and I started on the Norton 1K and went to the Norton 4K then the Nogura Botan then the Norton 8K and finally the Escher. I used a variety of typical back and forth honing strokes and standard strokes and used varying degrees of pressure.

Like Glen said, it's all in the pressure. That's the art here and you can only learn that through trial and error.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think most guys don't realize how different honing these things can be. The more extensive the honing required the more radical the approach can be. I just finished honing up the kamisori for the razor pass around "General Tojo" and it needed extensive bevel work and I started on the Norton 1K and went to the Norton 4K then the Nogura Botan then the Norton 8K and finally the Escher. I used a variety of typical back and forth honing strokes and standard strokes and used varying degrees of pressure.

Like Glen said, it's all in the pressure. That's the art here and you can only learn that through trial and error.

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+1.through trial and error make you perfect

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Iwasaki makes top notch razors and I'd go with that if I were shopping for a kamisori.
I think the current Iwasaki smith uses only swedish steel for the razors, the old Iwasaki used to use Tamahagane.

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+1... Both Iwasaki san & Mizu san (the current maker) consider the Swedish steel they use to be on a par with tamahagane when it comes to shaving performance.
Of course if you want a collectible item the tamahagane razors by Iwasaki are a sought after item & demand a high price.

Or is the razor supposed to be used by both?

I think I 've seen pics of a lefty but most are right handed AFAIK.

If you look at their site you will find it under custom razors. Can some one please tell me whether that is a right or left-handed Kamisori? Thank you

It is right handed

Now keep this in mind before it screws ya all up...

That means for a Right handed barber :) These razors are made for barber's to use, you have to learn very CAREFULLY how to use it on your face...

This is one of the reasons I personally think they have to be sooooo sharp otherwise you start applying pressure and pressure with these is normally a bad thing...
They need to glide barely even touching the skin during the shave... That of course is JMHO and a bit of experience thrown in...

Glen, truer words were never spoken.

NO PRESSURE.

Like a feather, is how these things should go on your face.

Senoreme, left handed Kamisori are very rare, and I haven't heard of ANY from Iwasaki. They tend to be order-made for specific customers, as I understand it.

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Originally Posted by darkraijin

tamahangane vs iwasaki


I've did some reading on the fourm reading tamahangane as the best of Japanese razors.
But found one on ebay used.
Questions)
1) Between the 2 what would be prefered. Personal or as razor companies.
2) to horn these myself what type of stones would I need. The store guy stuggested 12000. Just put water and slide away.
3) horn is done just as Euro razors.
4) time limit or no. of strokes.
5) 50mm length vs 60mm length.

Iwasaki is cheaper and is new. While Tamahagane is used and well price is well over 500. I've extended the guy an offer on ebay but now have heard back.
Advice opinions all welcome.
~Raijin.

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darkrajin;
Maybe your questions have been answered.
1. Both are very fine, what do you want to spend?
2. Careful honing kamisoris or you may ruin razor profile.
3. Kamisoris are not honed like western razors.
4. Hone stroke ratios may vary depending on razor condition. 7:1 maybe 12:1
5. The size of razor depends on your preference and final cost.
Attached are Iwasaki’s kamisori razors. The top is the Mizuochi-san razor which is the Swedish steel laminate. He is a Master blade smith not an apprentice. The lower is an Iwasaki-san razor made of tamahagane steel. There is an additional stamp on the Tamahagane steel which identifies it.
These are my razors and are both excellent to shave with. Due to the blade profile they require special care when honing. I can guarantee you that nothing but the finest natural stones touch these blades. If you purchase an Iwasaki razor or any kamisori off of EBay, I would advise you to have it checked and honed professionally so you can see what it is capable of. Hope this is some help.
MIke:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

It is right handed

Now keep this in mind before it screws ya all up...

That means for a Right handed barber :) These razors are made for barber's to use, you have to learn very CAREFULLY how to use it on your face...

This is one of the reasons I personally think they have to be sooooo sharp otherwise you start applying pressure and pressure with these is normally a bad thing...
They need to glide barely even touching the skin during the shave... That of course is JMHO and a bit of experience thrown in...

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So how did the typical Japanese shave? Did they all go to barbers or maybe use an electric themselves back in the 1800s?

That's an interesting question & my WAG is because the Japanese have so little facial hair it is almost a moot point. You see very few clean shaven faces in old Japanese art.
Shaving the head for monks & the top of the head for samurai would be more common & that would be easier if someone else did it be it a barber or not.

I think this whole thing is so alien to most of us in the West we invent answers when the true answer is as plain as the whiskers on your face. Of course they used these to shave with. It's no different than if someone here saw a western straight for the first time and you told them it was a razor and they would look at you like you were crazy and probably say "you mean you really shave with those"

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I think this whole thing is so alien to most of us in the West we invent answers when the true answer is as plain as the whiskers on your face. Of course they used these to shave with. It's no different than if someone here saw a western straight for the first time and you told them it was a razor and they would look at you like you were crazy and probably say "you mean you really shave with those"

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Actually, according to the founder of "Kamisori club" and shaving historian Yasuoki Takeuchi, (who's written a book on the history of shaving in Japan), No, they didn't. Prior to the opening of Japan to Western influence during the Meiji Restoration, it was not common practice to shave in Japan. Up until the 18th century only Buddhist priests really shaved, and then only their heads/parts of their heads, and that would have been done by someone else. For those outside the priesthood who did control their hair (for example the samurai with their half-shaved heads), they used tweezers to pluck the hair as the razors at the time were much too expensive.

Also, from the time of the Warring states period until the Meiji period, beards were a symbol of strength and authority so there was little shaving done. With Meiji, Japan opened its borders to Western goods and the huge influx of German goods in particular crowded out lots of domestic products (Solingen razors are still famous and well-regarded here) so any shaving done was done with cheaper Western style razors. But shaving was still unpopular until after WWII, when corporations began demanding clean-cut images--and you had Gillette and Schick selling safety razors on the market.

So no, there was no period in history when most people in Japan, in general, shaved themselves with Wakamisori. There were certainly individuals who did so, especially in the military I hear, but it was not a widespread practice I understand.

And there you go.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

So how did the typical Japanese shave? Did they all go to barbers or maybe use an electric themselves back in the 1800s?

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I hazve been told by my Japanese friend that there used to be another kind of kamisori double sided for self shave. I wish there were some pics available to see what it looked like.

Well if that was the case there would be way more of those than the ones we have so what happened to all of them and why would current makers make the "wrong" razor for sale?

When I got my first Tosuke it was sent by a friend in Japan (who is native Japanese) and he just said it was a traditional razor we used many years ago but no one has used them for a long time.

I totally agree with Glen and Nelson.

Japanese razors are tricksy little things to hone and feel totally different to a western razor. They are also totally different to shave with and really do take some time to get comfortable with. I definately wouldnt recommend a new guy buying one of these off eBay and then trying to hone it for his first razor..! Down that road lies frustration and bloodshed.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I hazve been told by my Japanese friend that there used to be another kind of kamisori double sided for self shave. I wish there were some pics available to see what it looked like.

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I would bet good money he's talking about DE razors. The word in Japanese is still Kamisori, and the word for "double edged" would be the same as "double sided."

I would imagine if they wanted to shave themselves they did just as we do now, which is figure the darn thing out without cutting the crap outta yourself... :)

I read that the difference with the "Right handed razor " and "Left handed razor" was in relation to how a barber held it, that was all... Not whether they were only used by barbers...

Heck I am still trying to figure out why the front and back are backward anyway LMAO ...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I would imagine if they wanted to shave themselves they did just as we do now, which is figure the darn thing out without cutting the crap outta yourself... :)

I read that the difference with the "Right handed razor " and "Left handed razor" was in relation to how a barber held it, that was all... Not whether they were only used by barbers...

Heck I am still trying to figure out why the front and back are backward anyway LMAO ...

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Backwards? Why what ever gave you that idea?

I have been doing allot of research on these and Tamahagane steel. The work, effort and man hours in Tamahagane steel is tremendous. Studies show that modern steel out performs Tamahagane. Not by much but it does. The aesthetics of Tamahagane can not be matched. This is comparing to Katana and not razors. When German steel reached Japan it crushed local smiths as everyone bought German Solingen steel. It was much cheaper and performed just as good. Modern Tamahagane is still made today at the Hitachi plant during the winter months influenced by old method. Almost all the modern Tamahagane is allocated to local sword smiths. By law sword smiths can only make 2 Katana a month. Its the vintage 70's Tamahagane that's desirable and I believe that's what the current Iwasaki Tamahagane's are made with and not modern Tamahagane. If you want Tamahagane you are paying for the tradition and craft that goes into these. Which is very cool and a complete art. Performance wise your not going to lose either way. I would go with the Swedish steel IMHO.

Tamahagane is not that special as far as steel goes, it has gotten sort of a mythical status because of katana , it is also rare which drives prices up. What makes Tamahagane so good is the heat treat and mastership of the blacksmith, but that is true for any steel.If Iwasaki use Swedish steel for their razors then it must be a really good steel.

thanks to all the feedback. Been a while since i posted this up. I will def. consider swedish steel. Jpns import a lot of things... including mineral water frm Scot's to make their own whiskey. All cultural stuff aside. Just dropped out of trying to procure a Jpns razor atm. Got a Bartmann among few others. For now trying to enjoy western razors and finally starting a restoration project with 9/8 geo salvage. But a lot of good 'good to knows' ... my sensie cannot speak highly of tamaghangne steel as he has few katanas. He does katorie shinto ryu. Swords are not my thing. More of empty hand kind of guy.