Extra Hollow Full Hollow and tough beards

I was reading through the thread on the Wacker razors http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...ackerfans.html And it was noted about larger blades and stiffness especially on tougher beards or whiskers. Last night I was visiting with John Crowley about the Wackers and he asked me if my beard was wiry, because it if it was, then Extra Hollow might not be a good choice. A 1/2 Hollow, 1/4 Hollow or even wedge grind give better shaves with very stiff beards.

So it got me to thinking that a new question could arise. The attributes of a Extra Hollow, thin blades, do not lend themselves to people that have rather coarse beards? Too much flex at the cutting edge?

I've also noticed in my Wade & Butcher " The Celebrated Extra Hollow Ground Razor" that it says on the blade seems more like some of the others that say Full Concave or Full Hollow Ground. I have had an excellent shave with it, and comparable every bit to the Revisor 1/1 Full Hollow razor I have. One, W&B made in Sheffield, England, the Revisor, and quite a few others, made in Solingen, Germany.

I have never had that experience,
IMHO if you know what you are doing and the razor is properly honed there will be no difference.
My beard is pretty thick, I prefer hollows to wedges and they shave me just fine.

As Stefan said, I've never felt that the heavier grinds does better at heavy or coarse beards.
Properly honed, with the right technique, any blade I have tried has gotten me very good results.
I also shave my head, and even against the grain at the back of my head, a full hollow mows thru like it's nobody's business. This topic, I'm sure, will be of the YMMV kind:)

I've noticed some full hollow grinds feel "stiffer" than other full hollow grinds. I know my T.I. full hollow feels different than some of my Solingen full hollow blades. But would agree that you can get great shaves with anything from wedges to full hollows it's just what feel you prefer.

I've got a beard like that and I can shave with any grind. My least favorite is the extra hollow and my most favorite would be Swedish framebacks (real or faux) and 1/2 hollows.

I think this is a misconception based on the fact that half-hollows, wedges, etc. tend to be heavier. In my experience, a heavier blade will shave a tough beard more easily. Or a light beard, for that matter. Of course, that assumes equal edges; the edge is by far the most important variable.

YMMV...
What a wonderful phrase.

YMMV
Ain't no passing craze

YMMV
It means no answer, for the rest of yer days

It's our problem free, Philosophy, YMMV


Sung to the tune of Lion King's "Hakuna Matata" :) :)

Temper and amount of C in the steel will play more role compare to grind of the blade.
shaving will be different.
usually hollow blades will sing.
wedge are silent shaver.
hope this helps.

I was kind of thinking more on the lines of scientific theories rather than YMMV ideas. *S* Example, say one person has a rather stiff larger face whisker and the extra hollow glides along the face and connects. Is it more likely to flex up and skim over the whisker, cutting of course, but leaving the whisker with a longer "pointed" end on it (the whisker) as compared to a 1/2 or Full Hollow that has enough stiffness in the blade edge, to meet the hair and literally "plow right through", leaving behind a more blunt end on the whisker? Kind of like whether you cut firewood with a chain saw and cut square to the wood, or cut at an angle and leaves behind a piece of wood resembling the end of a hypodermic needle. If you have normal to light beard hair thickness would you find more comfort of the blade against your skin then with the Extra Hollow?

This guy couldn't make up his mind on which grind.....

http://wme.cs.kent.edu/kimpton/img/whisker.jpg

I don't think anything beyond YMMV is possible. If someone tells you that their beard is thick and needs a quarter hollow and someone else tells you their beard is thick and they get the best shaves from full hollows, I think it must be a YMMV situation.

Thanks for bringing this up, I've wondered a lot about this as I also have a really tough beard. When I got my Hart razor, I thought it shaved so well just because it was a quarter hollow grind. But over the last few weeks, after comparing it with some of my other razors, it seems to me that it shaves so well (for me) because the shape of its edge makes it easier to make the shaving passes that work best for me. It has a modest smiling edge. I'm going to test this over the next few weeks to see if this is true, for me, anyway.

I haven't found there to be a ton of difference between different grinds, as long as they have all been honed by the same person.
But I do have this, sales pitch? Maybe. There are alot of variables other then just grind.

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Originally Posted by Gibbs

Example, say one person has a rather stiff larger face whisker and the extra hollow glides along the face and connects. Is it more likely to flex up and skim over the whisker, cutting of course, but leaving the whisker with a longer "pointed" end on it (the whisker) as compared to a 1/2 or Full Hollow that has enough stiffness in the blade edge, to meet the hair and literally "plow right through", leaving behind a more blunt end on the whisker?

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I think that is a valid point.

Let me try to make one too:
In your example you are saying the blade glides along the skin.
The point I would like to make about that, is that there is presumably an angle that the blade is presented to said whisker.
If you are leading that razor down your face in say a 30 degree angle, what does the edge do when it meets that strand, which for the sake of argument is standing out at a 90 degree angle? (with proper stretching)
Will the blade then do as you say and skim over the strand of hair, or will it catch, or be enough slowed down, to allow the forces applied from behind, at an angle, force the blade to bend the opposite way?

I'm not saying that it will, what I am saying is that with the proper technique, you can find that sweetspot where it doesn't flex much either way.
And the edge itself is the same regardless.
I believe this to be the main reason to why newcomers are encouraged by some to go with a bit stiffer blade, it leaves that part of the learning curve to a minimum. And I can attest to that there is enough to learn when starting out.

Well, that's how I see it.

Your whiskers do not see the blade. They do not care if it's hollow grind or wedge. They only see the very edge no different than a guy about to be guillotined. He doesn't care the grind does he? He's only concerned with the very edge. As long as its proper sharp that's all that matters. If you find there is a difference its because you are manipulating the blade differently or are applying more pressure.

It is true, that the edge is all that contacts the whisker. However, there is that "structure" behind the edge and that is what gives flex and bend. If all that mattered was an edge, why would there be wedge, 1/4 hollow 1/2 hollow, Full Hollow or even Extra Hollow? I read a lot, in here and in many forums, and kind of like Vance on NCIS, I usually remember everything. I remember a guy posting one time about the Extra Hollow that he tried and it was so flexing, that he took out a big chunk of skin on his chin as the blade flexed to his heavier whiskers. He sold the razor and vowed never to go back to Extra Hollow singing blades because of it. John Crowley, in a phone conversation just last night asked me if I had a wiry beard? He said he would not recommend an Extra Hollow ground for a wiry beard since they don't do well with coarse beards. My wife, who went to beautician school, agrees that there are differences in whisker attributes, soft, normal or wiry. You see, Thebigspender, it's not about the edge but it better be supported well. Or else you could just glue a Double Edge razor to a stick and shave with it. But, where would be the support of the edge?

So I think there's a lot to a ground blade. How it's ground translates on how well the blade will or will not flex on your face.

Gibbs, do you believe that because someone posted on the Internet that he cut himself as a cosequence of using a full hollow razor as opposed to, say, a quarter hollow that it's factual? Sure, you remember reading it and the person that posted it probably believes it, but does that make it true? My personal experience is that the grind of the blade (excluding the shape of the point) has nothing to do with whether I cut myself or not. In fact, I find the theory that it does to be preposterous.

Perhaps I don't have a sufficiently wiry or heavy beard to experience the difference, but I get equally good results from several grinds. The subjective aspects are far from identical, but the quality of the shave is comparable. Predicting the effectiveness of a razor based on someone's self analysis of their beard is risky business anyway. My definition of wiry or coarse might overlap someone else's definition of average. Am I average plus?...wiry minus?...it's not an exact science, which is why YMMV.

I remember the first time I read on the forum about a member feeling a full hollow flexing on his face when he shaved with it. Next time I shaved with one I noticed it too. Not with all but with some. There is no doubt in my mind that we all don't have the same density or thickness of whiskers. Being a pro tattooer for a couple of decades I know we don't have the same skin.

That said, if you aren't a barber shaving many different people how do you know if your beard is tough or not ? Compared to what ? I used to think mine was but reading descriptions of other members and their shaves has me convinced mine couldn't be. I can get bbs in two passes every time and one pass sometimes. I've never shaved anyone else's whiskers so cannot compare.

Now as far as grind, most pro barbers I've known, and that is one hell of a lot of them, used full hollow ground razors most of the time. They encountered every whisker type there is day after day. This would lead me to believe that a well honed quality full hollow will shave any beard type as well as any other grind ..... YMMV :)

"Am I average plus?...wiry minus?...it's not an exact science, which is why YMMV." How true Bill.
I never said that I believed the gentleman, nor did I question him about it. He was a seasoned shaver, some 10 years IIRC, so it was not some newbie just getting a bad cut on a razor. He had been at this a very long time. He felt, objectively, that because the way the razor flexed, it gave way to "his" cut on his beard. I don't what kind of whiskers I have for sure. I don't have a whisker-meter doo-hicky that can tell me I have a light, normal, or heavy beard. And I can honestly say I have had good shaves from very stiff near 1/4 wedge Ramapo Co (circa 1854 with a smile) to thinner Wade & Butcher Extra Hollow Ground and a lot in-between, mostly thin though. Good shaves all around. I shaved tonight with a Wade & Butcher Extra Hollow Ground, and tried out a J.A. Henckels Full Hollow, along with one I wanted to see how it came along for honing, a Peter Hennes Haan-Solingen. Man is it nice .. and sharp! Looks like a full hollow. Second pass with my DOVO 6/8 full hollow.

My point is, there must be a reason that they made Extra Hollow Ground and even declare it as such: Thiers-Issard and DOVO do in their Extra Hollow "Singing" razors, though the DOVO beat the TI in that regards I've been told. Given that all that matters is the edge, then why the extra bother and the resulting rejection of failed attempts of Extra Hollow if 1/4 or 1/2 will do? Was there a comfort feeling on these grinds that differs? I know.. YMMV. LOL But really, in the industry there is always seemingly the reference to the grind. If it matters not, then why even mention it?

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Originally Posted by Gibbs

If it matters not, then why even mention it?

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Singing razor ? Maybe it is the birds chirping that I hear from my tinnitus but I haven't heard a razor "sing" yet. They call them Silver Steel, Manganese Steel, Super Keen Cutting Steel, Pumamaster Steel, and God only knows what all, to get people to buy them. Same reason they produce different grinds and mention it.

As Robert Doyle said in "Collecting Straight Razors" 1980, "By 1870 the full hollow blade took over the market. The large wedge blade was losing popularity and was doomed in 1880 with the invention of machine forging." If it wasn't for the resurgence of popularity in straight razor shaving by a niche market the few heavier grind razors available probably wouldn't exist. IMHO.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Singing razor ? Maybe it is the birds chirping that I hear from my tinnitus but I haven't heard a razor "sing" yet. They call them Silver Steel, Manganese Steel, Super Keen Cutting Steel, Pumamaster Steel, and God only knows what all, to get people to buy them....

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You forgot Kayser Ellison Best Sheffield Silver Steel, I know, I got one, a Hammond Extra with jimps top and bottom 5/8 Full Hollow and magnetic to boot, LOL.
It may be that the extra hollow are a real treat to shave with, but the Full Hollows have cut many a whisker. The "Singing" razor is supposed to give a slight ring to the vibration of the blade. DOVO's Prima Klang is German for "First or (primary) Note/Sound. You would think there would be some logic to having such an extreme ground, an Extra Hollow Grind, or else the word would be out and no one would pay much attention to Prima Klangs or the Thiers-Issard Carbonsong C135 Extra Hollow razors, or any other Extra Hollow ground razor.

Not to belabor the point but .... in the 1980s I used to collect straight razors. I went to many, many barber shops and asked the then old barbers if they had any old razors they wanted to sell. I went to shops all over north jersey. Newark, Patterson, Belleville, Kearny .... on and on. Those old guys favored full hollow dubl ducks, FWE Specials and Leaders, and other full hollow razors. I don't surmise this, I asked and they told me. They had been professionals for 40 or 50 years back when they frequently gave every Tom, Dick and Harry shaves. They probably didn't analyze the relationship between edge, grind and whisker much more than using what worked best for them day after day, year after year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gibbs

He was a seasoned shaver, some 10 years IIRC, so it was not some newbie just getting a bad cut on a razor. He had been at this a very long time. He felt, objectively, that because the way the razor flexed, it gave way to "his" cut on his beard.

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Some thoughts:

"Even monkeys can fall from trees" ~ 10 years doesn't guarantee you cut free shaving

Maybe the razor was too sharp. Yes, I'm joking :)

Say I have a tough beard & shave with 2 extra hollow razors. One shaves well, the other poorly. If I only had experienced one of those razors would my opinion be biased ?

Lastly, I refer you to this post of Jimmy's. These instructions bear reading well.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...-use-care.html

Thanks for the link, Oz!! I see that Jimmy had even back then found out about wiry beard and thinnes of blades.. Jimmy's post #4 "I also found the blade selection suggestions interesting. For a heavy coarse beard a too thin blade should not be used unless someone is somewhat of an expert in handling the razor. Also that holding it at a right angle to the skin and scraping will only irritate the skin, spoil the edge and cause the best razor to fail. "

I have always dipped the razor in hot water before putting it to my face. Even before reading this post. It adds fresh water to the soap on the face and hot as well. It helps to lubricate and glide the razor across the face. Drying out soap doesn't cut as nicely as freshened up soap lather. I even dip the brush in the hot water when shaving, lightly, and give the drier areas that I'm about to shave a freshening of water. I assumed that every one knew to do this? I've done it for 30 years wet shaving with a DE or single edge razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gibbs

Thanks for the link, Oz!!

No problemo.

I even dip the brush in the hot water when shaving, lightly, and give the drier areas that I'm about to shave a freshening of water. I assumed that every one knew to do this? I've done it for 30 years wet shaving with a DE or single edge razor.

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"Never assume" :p

Gibbs,

I sometimes think my whiskers are made from hardened high-carbon steel :)

I have had no problems shaving with my Dovo Prima Klang and my Genco Fluid Steel; and conversly my whiskers have had no ill effects on the razors edges.

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Thanks for that, Russ! I'll sleep better tonight.... well, as soon as my heartburn goes away. Ate too late, now up for a bit.. LOL.
It was nice to hear from someone with a DOVO Prima Klang. I've often wondered about those razors for smoothness of shave. I have a Wade & Butcher that says "The Celebrated Extra Hollow Ground" on the blade, and it shaves wonderful, but I can't say that it is a truly singing blade. The closest I've come to having something in the class of the Prima Klang was the A. Fiest & Co. Monterna, but it had a crack in it and I reduced it to 9/16 blade to eliminate the curling hair size crack on the blade edge. I probably lost the relationship of the extra hollow in the removing of about 0.087" of the blade's edge.

I'm glad that your whiskers succumb to the Prima Klang! I think they are one of the better made razors made by DOVO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I remember the first time I read on the forum about a member feeling a full hollow flexing on his face when he shaved with it. Next time I shaved with one I noticed it too. Not with all but with some. There is no doubt in my mind that we all don't have the same density or thickness of whiskers. Being a pro tattooer for a couple of decades I know we don't have the same skin.

That said, if you aren't a barber shaving many different people how do you know if your beard is tough or not ? Compared to what ? I used to think mine was but reading descriptions of other members and their shaves has me convinced mine couldn't be. I can get bbs in two passes every time and one pass sometimes. I've never shaved anyone else's whiskers so cannot compare.

Now as far as grind, most pro barbers I've known, and that is one hell of a lot of them, used full hollow ground razors most of the time. They encountered every whisker type there is day after day. This would lead me to believe that a well honed quality full hollow will shave any beard type as well as any other grind ..... YMMV :)

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When I used a multi-blade, they would last about 4-5 shaves and start to really pull. I have friends that used a multi-blade for months at a time without pulling.

I prefer 1/4 hollow due to the weight of the blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Not to belabor the point but .... in the 1980s I used to collect straight razors. I went to many, many barber shops and asked the then old barbers if they had any old razors they wanted to sell. I went to shops all over north jersey. Newark, Patterson, Belleville, Kearny .... on and on. Those old guys favored full hollow dubl ducks, FWE Specials and Leaders, and other full hollow razors. I don't surmise this, I asked and they told me. They had been professionals for 40 or 50 years back when they frequently gave every Tom, Dick and Harry shaves. They probably didn't analyze the relationship between edge, grind and whisker much more than using what worked best for them day after day, year after year.

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Now i know why I cannot find an antique razor in northern NJ.

I agree to some extend with everyone. The hollow-grounds is a product of better technology rather then a better shaver.

It's the same argument and I still say the same answer to it. If you needed a particular grind to cut a particular beard type the barbers back in the day would have had an arsenal of straights of all sizes and grinds to best tackle a particular beard type. However as Jimmy said, they didn't. They favored Full Hollows and mostly 5/8s and 6/8s and they managed to cut all beard types and give outstanding shaves too. So how was this possible?

If you think you need a certain grind and get better results you are the factor. You need to ask yourself what you are doing different. Are you using size and weight as a "crutch" in place of some skill? Maybe you are holding the razor so as to "flex" the edge too much. I don't know but all I do know is I don't have no peachfuzz and I can get the same quality shave no matter the size or grind.

I've got a tough beard and sensitive skin and I get a great shave out of all my blades, from wedge to full hollow. As long as they're well honed then they'll shave you well IMO.

This is definitely a YMMV thing and really down to each individuals taste and what they like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Higo

The hollow-grounds is a product of better technology rather then a better shaver.

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I might disagree with you there. Full and extra hollow razors will take a wicked edge, and quicker than a wedge or 1/4 hollow. Obviously this would be a benefit for barbers or anyone looking to "simplify" their honing routine. Does this make them "better shavers"? Maybe, and perhaps maybe not? But is does mean you have to be more aware of technique and pressure.

In the end it matters not. Extra hollow, 1/2 hollow, wedge - they all have their place in the shave den....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I might disagree with you there. Full and extra hollow razors will take a wicked edge, and quicker than a wedge or 1/4 hollow. Obviously this would be a benefit for barbers or anyone looking to "simplify" their honing routine. Does this make them "better shavers"? Maybe, and perhaps maybe not? But is does mean you have to be more aware of technique and pressure.

In the end it matters not. Extra hollow, 1/2 hollow, wedge - they all have their place in the shave den....

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All very true, Ryan and others. I even shaved off my mustache some years ago with a regular Imperial pocket knife I had, and still have. Sharpened it to no visible edge and then stropped it on my leather belt. Took off the wiry lip hairs like no tomorrow. That was WAAAY before I knew much about straight razors, or even before internet was around. We're talking late 70's here.. 1970. But, it had no particular grind and cut the coarse hairs off with out much fan fare.

So I agree, yes, there is only the edge and the facial hairs and how they meet and how sharp are the edges for the job. Cutting aside, I was merely curious if the Extra Hollow Ground, "thinner" blades were a more comfortable shave? Did they glide along the skin, whacking off whiskers and giving allowance to the nuisances of a persons face. Other extreme would be a hatchet, or obsidian. And either will cut whiskers, but probably not my first choice.. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Singing razor ? Maybe it is the birds chirping that I hear from my tinnitus but I haven't heard a razor "sing" yet. They call them Silver Steel, Manganese Steel, Super Keen Cutting Steel, Pumamaster Steel, and God only knows what all, to get people to buy them. Same reason they produce different grinds and mention it.

As Robert Doyle said in "Collecting Straight Razors" 1980, "By 1870 the full hollow blade took over the market. The large wedge blade was losing popularity and was doomed in 1880 with the invention of machine forging." If it wasn't for the resurgence of popularity in straight razor shaving by a niche market the few heavier grind razors available probably wouldn't exist. IMHO.

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I think this is a case of something that's not going to stop until someone agrees with him- I have many razors,different grinds but all have good edges and they shave well,the rest is called preference and also marketing,I cant sell you the same thing ad-infinitum,I have to have a "New and Improved grind,steel,or some other angle" The best answer has already been given-YMMV. Anything else is pointless as just look at how many different blades are out there and we all have our favorites,and some of them come from the same manufacturer of a blade we don't like,but since we don't know that our favorite brand made them we think there different. Also I didn't name anyone as HIM so if you think its you....it might be.
PS- Ive also never heard a razor singing either,and I been using a straight since I'm 17,and I'm now 56,you do the math

I am bald on the head, but facing a strong and thick beard growth. But this is no match for my Prima Klang.

And I guess other straight razors will do the job as well.

I have an extra hollow/heavier grind{not heavy just heavier) that shaves very well.Whatever the grind epiphet(hollow/half hollow) there are different grind weights,nothing is simple,it might even be art making razors.I know most people use the description extra hollow to mean razors like Dovo Prima Klang/Otto Bush/Dubl duck etc very thin blades.TI doesnt seem to follow the cliche/description.
Sorry if ive gone off the plot

Achieving an extra hollow grind on a razor requires considerable skill and experience. The so called "singing" grind on the TI razors I have seen is far cry from what I consider extra hollow.

I believe dovo discontinued the Prima Klang. It was probably not very cost effective for them to produce, and I would I imagine craftsmen who can perform this kind of grind can be counted on one hand.

There is a reason why most artisan custom razors have heavier grinds.

The bellied hollow grinds are certainly a work of art. The workmanship is amazing.

I have a 7/8 and 6/8 Otto Busch razors. Both extra hollow blades. Prefer them as the sound helps me keep the proper angle. They get louder as the angle become too steep/ less optimum.
Also they are much easier to hone and touch up. Very few strokes are necessary to get the edge shaving well again. The size/width of the bevel is very small/thin. So very little steel needs to be removed, vs heavier grinds I believe. My 2cent. Ken.