I have a set of scales on a Joseph Rogers straight,and i "think" they are ivory,but not sure.I have sanded them and they dont smell like horn or bakelite.What else can i do?? thanks
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I have a set of scales on a Joseph Rogers straight,and i "think" they are ivory,but not sure.I have sanded them and they dont smell like horn or bakelite.What else can i do?? thanks
Post a pic if you can . Ivory will be more rigid than celluloid/plastic , sometimes you can see the grain in it , it will not have pores like bone does , and if you look closely at the inside of the scales you may see little saw marks .
Most all ivory I've seen has a subtle grain to it. You may have to hold it at an angle to light to see it. The old ivory scales were usually thinner than celluloid scales and in many I've seen the pins didn't have ferrules/washers around them. I would say I 'know' ivory if I have it in hand. In photos I'm less sure.
You can also use the old school pin test to check for ivory. Take a needle or straight pin and heat up the tip with a lighter. Then find an inconspicuous part of the scales and touch the hot pin to it. If it's plastic/celluloid it will start to melt. If it's ivory it will smell like burning hair. I would only use this test after all other avenues of identification come up empty.
This is exactly i would do. lets you know what it is.glQuote:
Originally Posted by Theseus
will give it a go. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Theseus
In addition to above, often ivory is assembled with silver pins, no washers/collars. Along with metal wedge. Not a hard a fast rule, but a solid general observation.
IMHO, there's no need to go poking it with a hot needle to check for it's material. More often than not, you can get that same smell just from hand polishing the scales....you're likely to do it anyway. Just start polishing until you build up a mild heat on your rag and then give the scales a sniff. Celluloid will have a chemical/camphor smell to it and ivory will not.
Lightly clack the scales against your teeth. Ivory and bone scales make a distinct noise as compared to celluloid. Bone is easy to identify with it's darks spots and grain. Compare the sound to that of scales you know are celluloid and that should tell you as well.
Ivory is easy to determine. Real ivory has a distinctive appearance, grain and texture. It should be creamy-coloured or off-white, with a smooth grain to it. If it's perfectly smooth - it's celluloid. Don't be fooled. Real ivory feels a little gritty.
Bone often has little pits and holes in it. Ivory won't have that. Real cleaned, polished ivory will be smooth but not completely so. I believe that somewhere (either here or at B&B) there was a thread which showed photographs of razors with ivory, bone and celluloid scales. As I can't find it, I'll do the next best thing...
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...hs/Krazor1.jpg
These scales are celluloid. Also called "French ivory".
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ritingBox5.jpg
While they're not straight-razors, all these things here are made of ivory. As you can see, it's off-white in colour, but not the light-yellow custardy look of the razor above, with the celluloid scales.
Post a picture and we'll give you a good idea. I agree with all that has been said above, and I'll add that once you've seen ivory in hand, elephant ivory that is, you'll almost always be able to identify it instantly in future.
I work with and deal in Ivory every day,Please do not be burning holes in the material.
Actually when burned it smells like teeth (think dentists office) bone smells like hair.
If you can see Schreger lines (small Vee shaped chevrons) on the edges you have real ivory,they cannot be faked, (Elephant Or Mammoth)will post a pic a little later.
On small pces such as scales they may be hard to see,another test is to hit the pce with UV light in a dark room
It will light up purple,as will bone but the visual diff,between the two is like night and day.
I will +1 to these recommendations. The lines are most distinct on the end grain of the piece. The angle of the V between lines will determine if it's elephant versus mammoth. Those angles do not appear on man made material like celluloid, no matter how good appearing as ivory it is. Same for the ivory micarta. Good fakes but not the real deal by a long shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
I am going to test the UV. That's new to me and I appreciate learning something.
Honestly guys there are some great ideas and hints on this thread,,,,
But they mostly assume that the guy holding the scales, has different razors to compare them too :)
The best test holding one set of scales, is still the hot pin test, the good news is that you will only have to try it one time on real ivory, after that you can spot it instanly...Without the hot pin test, your eyes and brain are the best tests,,, Ivory scales are thin I mean really thin, so are bone hehehe but if you look under a loupe bone will have holes, little tiny pin prick holes, and Ivory will have grain... After you narrow it down from looking then the hot pin test should be the final one because you might not even need it and it is not so good between Bone and Ivory
In high priced,faked Ivory pieces such as Japanese Netsuki,The hot pin test means nothing.
The pros have ways to use phenolics mixed with Ivory shavings that do not melt and do light up under U.V. light.
Schreger Lines are 100% proof positive along with a U.V test.
Granted, nobody is going to fake Ivory on a razor, but the O.P, wanted a sure way of telling.
Note the pic,The lines are 120+ degrees,this is modern day Elephant (this pce is well over 100 yrs old) with mammoth the lines are 90 degs. or less,easy to tell.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...e/schreger.jpg
Here are some Heljes for comparison. In the photo with the pins the celluloid is on the extreme left. Note the washers as opposed to the ivory which only has the pins. The other photo shows the thinness of the ivory compared to the celluloid. In the photo comparing thickness the celluloid helje is the 2nd from the left. On the far right is an old Sheffield Joseph Rodgers. BTW, IME the grain on a faux ivory is not random. It is consistent while with the genuine article it is random.Attachment 67665Attachment 67666
Thanks G-Man,side by side with similar scales in good light under a mag glass i can see the grain and now without the mag lense i can see the GRAIN. Its not bone,I gots me some ivory scales!!!!! Its a Joesph Elliot not Rogers best silver steel. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Thanks to everyone who took the time to post pics and comments to help me out, I love this place !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Jimmy that pic helps a ton..
I just got back from town and was going to go take some, but yers are better :tu
Here are four in a row: Ivory, Antique Ivory, Bone and Celluloid:http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z.../4Swedessm.jpg
Ivory has a very soft luster when polished with toothpaste or polishing compound; notice the light reflected across the top razor. Bone has fine inclusions of dark matter/stain. Celluloid often has a pattern almost like a fabric when held at different angles to the light.
As mentioned above the Ivory scales I have seen usually have no washer. they also may crack if you try to re-tighten them.
Respectfully
~Richard
The only thing I will add is once you have held genuine ivory in your hand you will never mistake it again. It has a feel all it's own.
Got one Question, my razor seems to have a collar on the pin at the blade end and the end that has the wedge is smaller,but the scales are alot thinner than my other razors and look like the ones in jimmys pics. So is that pin with a collar a telltale sign its not ivory??
I wouldn't say that it's a tell tale sign. It was probably just repinned at some point in it's history.Quote:
Originally Posted by nessmuck
The two different types of pins most likely point to the scales not being original to that razor...
The switching of scales goes way way back....It does not tell anything other than that, I have seen Ivory with collared pins too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Listen closely to these gentlemen. For they speak an absolute truth. I know, because having touched real ivory myself on several occasions, I can testify to the fact that once you've felt real ivory -- you'll never mistake it for anything else, and anything else for it...ever again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio
I have a razor that I picked up off the bay for cheap, and the seller (who had tons of odds and ends for sale but only one razor) said that the scales were celluloid. I'm not sure if they are ivory or celluloid, so this thread interested me. I did the pin test on the inside of the scales and it didn't melt. I couldn't smell anything as I'm getting over a cold. I can see that there are very FEW small spots of what I guess you could compare to wood fibers after rough sanding with high grit, fraying on the inside of the scales. I haven't tried the "clanking on teeth" or shining up tests yet. The pins do not have any washers, and there is a hairline crack at the wedge end on one side. The wedge is metal of some type. I'm hoping that they are Ivory but if not no love lost for this razor, considering it only cost 13 bucks shipped and it will be a good shaver once I get it cleaned up & shave ready. I know that you guys can't be certain looking at pics but would love to hear your thoughts. Also if anyone has any info they can share with me about this Bingham razor I would appreciate it. Bingham is the only mark on the razor, & I couldn't find anything except info on tally ho razors when searching.
Thanks
Louis.
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1303117925
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1303118029
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1303118291http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1303118252
2 things stand out on the above razor that make me think ivory.
1. the telltale crack at the wedge end & 2. How thin the scales are.
Hard to photograph but these are Elephant Ivory. It's hard to see the structure of the material in the figure without magnification but easier to see it in the brush.
Very nice,You need to see the end cut to see the Lines,but as others have said,once you hold a pce, you will know real ivory.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ne/Pic4-17.jpg
As other have said, you just know ivory. The real key to me is the grain pattern. You have to hold the scales at an angle in the correct light and you will see the growth rings in the ivory, just like a tree. I have some ivory and bone. I will have to see if I can get a good close up macro photo of both. This is a new Williams in pre-ban elephant ivory.
That is almost certainly ivory. Celluloid is too perfect. This isn't perfect. Bone is all gritty, this is nice and smooth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
It's ivory.
That is ivory. I had the exact same razor but one side of the scales was broken beyond repair.
well, everyone here seems to know a lot about ivory, so here is my razor, i believe it to have either ivory or bone, though i cant tell which (if it is even one of them)
i have a bone hook necklace (i know it is bone) that i ahve tapped against my teeth, and the scales have been tapped against my teeth as well, they make different sounds
one of the pins has a washer, one of the pins have no washers
there is a crack in the scales
the wedge in the scales is made of metal
there are no markings of any sort on the razor except for a number scratched into the handle
i can give any more information that is asked for
here is some pictures of the razor, the pictures have been "enhanced" so they are not the true color, they seem to be a little lighter than the pictures portray.
what do yall think?
Attachment 68258Attachment 68259Attachment 68260
For a minute I thought they were bone by the pivot pin having a washer but now I see that the spacer pin doesn't have a spacer. Because the pins are different I would guess that this razor was re-scaled. Because of the washerless pin on the spacer end, the crack on the same end ant the thinness of the scales my guess would be ivory.
I'm not going to lie.
I think the photos are terrible. If you take better photos with the razor against non-clashing background (blue, white, etc) that would help immensely, and try and do something about the lighting.
Based on what I can see, I suspect they ARE ivory, but without clearer (and preferrably, closer) photos, I wouldn't be entirely sure. They certainly look like it. They have the characteristics of ivory, but the colour looks wrong. If they are ivory, that's the yellowest ivory I've seen in years. The first photograph is uncertain. The secon photograph, maybe. The last photograph, they look like plastic.
The simplest, non-destructive test I've ever come across for determining genuine ivory came from an ivory specialist on Antiques Roadshow. Hold the scales horizontal to the floor and look for the Schreger lines. Then, slowly rotate the scales as if they are hands on a clock. The Schreger lines will fade in and out, appear and disappear, at every quarter hour. (The quarter hour is my own estimation.) Celluloid won't do this.
That's my favorite ivory trick.
Christopher
Beautiful examples, Bill!Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Some ivorine celluloid can have a pretty convincing-looking fake grain, but it tends to be larger-scale and suspiciously regular. Ivory is also (one of the reasons for its desirability) slightly less slippery when wet.
In the first pic the markings on the scales towards the top of the scale is not characteristic of Ivory, more of bone. But, it's hard to tell.
oops:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer
later learned
Attachment 185175Attachment 185176
