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Attachment 75059
My latest eBay acquisition.
I've dug around here a fair bit and I can find nothing on a James Barber 'Hand Forged'.
Plus, the stamp on the horn scales strongly resembles the WWI razor refurbs but clearly isn't one of them.
The blade is a hair shy of 6/8ths and is a true wedge. Looks like it's going to be a lovely shaver after some cleanup.
The stamp and blade style make me think 1850s, but I'm just guessing. Anyone have a more informed opinion on this one?
If it were WWI it would probabbly be celluloid, I am going to agree with you and say 1850 and maybe then some. This is also about the same time that the phrase "Hand Forged" became a selling point while competeing with blades that were machine forged.
I would guess 1850 or 1860. And excuse my pet peeve, but I'm also going to guess it's not a true wedge.
The company was started by Isaac Barber in the 1820s. In 1845 Isaac & James Barber were listed as making knives. Isaac died in 1854 and James died at the tender age of 40 in 1859. The trademark 'ERA' featured prominently over James Barbers name in the 1850s, and they had began making razors by then. The firm carried on under the directorship of Harriet Barber (widow of James) until the 1870s, then under Mary Ann Barber until her death in 1897. Then another James Barber took over as senior partner. In the 1900s they had the Era Works in Sheffield but in 1928 the trasemark was taken over by Joseph Elliot. It was still listed as a part of Elliots in the 1970s.
So - it could have been WW1.
Regards,
Neil
My WWI guess wasn't about manufacture, but refurb. I've seen a number of pictures of blades which had been sent to the British army for refurbishing in WWI, and all of them had the same style translucent horn scales. They were all also stamped with numbers and letters, but the codes were completely different.Quote:
Originally Posted by nun2sharp
Hah. Yes. You're correct, there's about a 1/16ths inch gap down the middle of the blade when I lay it on the DMT. It is flatter than any of the other wedges I have though.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
The thing that's throwing me here is that there's no ERA stamp anywhere on this one, nor 'Sheffield'. But I've not seen many (any? I can't recall) pictures of James Barber razors... I will post better pictures in just a moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
I just saw few days ago on Ebay a letter sent by some ministry to a Sheffield association of razor smiths, to encourage them to collect old razors from the people to send them to their soldiers during WWI. (I tried to save the imag but it was not allowed :( ) I have one Pipe like that, the handle is blonde horn with similar fire branded numbers (mine are a little different: 3CL 380).
According to this letter I saw, it seems we have razors that are older than 1915 (although yours looks older than mine), and that have been donated by English citizens to be sent to the front lines.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6021/...ae377b24_z.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6020/...56eca1df_z.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6125/...b7c27f2f_z.jpg
I should also add that the other side of the razor has no marks whatsoever.
The WWI razors this put me in mind of are pictured over here. It's definitely not the same, but it's similar enough to make me really wonder.
Yes! That's the exact program I was thinking of, and I too saw that listing on eBay (and this one as well, but it didn't mention the British refurbishing program -- just said it was an old James Barber razor).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauri
I suppose it's possible that this one is from earlier or later in the war, but I kind of doubt it. Plus this razor has the 'RPA' initials burned in by hand rather than with a letterform stamp.
Thanks for the link, so I could save the pic!
According to the blade shape and scales material, I would say your razor is older than WWI.
Just a suggestion: couldn't the RPA have been branded by some soldier who wanted to personalize his razor?
If we had some historian expert in the cyphers used by armies it would be a blessing... :D
That's what I was thinking about the RPA brand as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauri
The one thing I'm certain of is that I'll be cleaning this razor up and giving it its third(?) life.
I reckon those initials are 'RFA' for Royal Field Artillery - if someone had access to a list of RFA service numbers, then you could identify the soldier who owned that razor.
Regards,
Neil
Neil, you forgot about another owner of this trademark.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Thomas Ellin & Co. used this trademark since 1846 till they were taken over by the Joseph Elliot & Son about 1944.
Thomas Ellin is one of the oldest Sheffield cutlers. They were in business since 1784, located at the Sylvester Works, Arundel Street, Sheffield.
http://manah.strazors.com/ellin_4.jpg
Isaac & James Barber:
http://manah.strazors.com/barber_1.jpg
After the deaths of Thomas Ellin I in 1845 Thomas Ellin II in 1847 his sons were too inexperienced to manage the company, so Joseph Ellin and George Barber took over as the management with Geo. Barber living in the Sylvester Works. In the 1851 census Geo. Barber is listed as master of the firm, but he died in 1872 and A R Ellin took control. Geo. Barbers son, Joseph Ingall Barber, took the role of travelling salesman for the company, but he sadly died at the age of 32 in 1874. Fred Barber, Geos. youngest son, cultivated the Canadian market. After the death of his wife Hannah, Fred Barber married again while on a trip to Toronto but he discovered his wife was bigamously married to someone else and he shot himself in 1888 at Niagara Falls. A R Ellin, made a Master Cutler in 1901, died in 1908. The last Ellin - Arthur - took over the firm, but retired in 1934, after which Joseph Elliot bought the trademarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by manah
This shows that Ellin and James Barber were totally unconnected - the only connection is that both their marks were bought by Joseph Elliot and retained for Elliots use. So - as in the earlier 'Wolf' controversy - we have another firm using an earlier firms trademarks - Joseph Elliot procured the ERA mark, the I & J Barber mark, the CUTTER mark, the VULCAN mark as well as many others. Ascribing trademarks to the wrong people is a mistake frequently made by certain references available who fail to mention that the marks were sold on, either to widen trade for the new owner (many people put their faith in a brand) or simply to limit competition. It's an easy mistake to make and the fragmentary documentation available doesn't help much to address it!
Regards,
Neil
Thank you very much, Neil and Manah! I do at least feel confident that this is the same James Barber.
Do either of you have an opinion on whether the lack of ERA makes this razor younger or older?
Directly comparing it to the two razors I have from 1810-1830, it is more similar than I'd initially thought in terms of tail-length and tang size. It *does* weigh less, but I get the feeling this thing was reground when these scales were put on it. Specifically, I think the blade was reduced.
As for RFA vs RPA, that's a really tough call. The letters are not stamped from a die of any kind, I think they were burned in free-hand. I can make myself believe it's either RFA or RPA, but the P seems marginally more likely. There's a defined dot where the loop was closed to make the upper form of the letter.
Alas, the seller has no info on it.
Maybe it is RPA, but if the soldier's service number is on the scales it seems like overkill to put his initials on them too.
The reason I thought it might be RFA is because I have seen similar razors with regimental markings - I suppose if you found the razor in a mixed camp, rather than asking for the soldier by serial number you would just hand it over to someone in the same regiment, and let them figure out whose it was - different brigades and divisions fought side by side at the front.
The Royal Regiment of Artillery (RA) was formed in 1722, the Royal Horse Artillery (RHA) in 1793, and in 1899 the RHA was split into three parts: the Royal Field Artillery (RFA), the Royal Garrison Artillery (RGA) and the remaining RHA, So, the earliest year those scales could be from - if indeed it is RFA - is 1899.
My dad was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery, by the way.
Regards,
Neil
British razor request letter.
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3217/oldsparerazor.jpg
I have this one in my rotation.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachm...1&d=1232980038
Here is my WW1 Cockhill, does anyone know what the "RE" stands for at the end? Also any idea about a manufacture date for a Cockhill? Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
RE *could* be the Royal Engineers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastershake
I've turned up very little plausible on RPA, so I think your theory that it's an F, and thus Royal Field Artillery is as sound as it gets until I get hold of someone with documents to trace the number. And now that Mastershake has turned up another with a similar numbering scheme, I'm convinced that my instinct was correct here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Time to find some hardcore military historians!
Thank you so very, very much!
(And yes, I am quite certain I'll get a better shave with this razor for knowing all this)
Alright. That cinches it. The numbering scheme on yours is the same as the one I've got, and the positioning is the same.
I am now fully convinced that Neil is correct about regiment markings.
All this now makes me wonder what the numbers and letters on my Pipe can mean... :)
I've just sent email to the Imperial War Museum in London. I hope they can help. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastershake
Examining the one I've got, I just found the remnants of another, very faint stamp in between the numbers and the letters. I had to hold it up to the light and angle it around. It looked, at first, like just a few scratches. But I'm pretty sure it used to be letters.
Can you examine that one and see if it has anything there? On mine, it was just after the 5 digit number, but much smaller letters.
On the other side of the handle of mine, there are three dots, made with the same technique of the letters. But I think it's just for an aesthetic reason, unless three dots at a consistent distance from one another mean something to the army. Do you have anything on yours?
I looked all over the scales even with a flashlight behind the translucent horn scales and I have no additional marking on mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
Maybe the light addidtional marking was by the soldier, initials or something. It's funny that both of our first set of numbers end in "44".
I don't think the marking I found was scrawled, it's really clearly defined letter forms, like from a die-stamp, just much smaller. About the size of the typeface on an old typewriter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastershake
Do you know anything about where yours came from? Presumably, you bought it here in the US? I'm pretty sure the seller of the one I got also got his here. That combined with the similar numbering scheme and layout is very interesting as well.
I traded for mine with a local barber, he didn't know what the markings were I had to do research on the forum to find out so I have no history, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
Ah well. I'd love to know how these razors got to America, but I'll be content with running into the brick wall of all the burned records of WWI soldiers. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastershake
On that note, I have turned up some more stuff.
First up is that mark I mentioned. Here's a picture of it on my razor:
Attachment 75573
Here's a picture of a similar mark on another razor:
Attachment 75572
I feel pretty confident saying those are the same (well except mine is WD1 and the other one is WD2).
That symbol in between the W and the D is a Broad Arrow or crowsfoot. It means that these razors were, unequivocally, military gear.
I've heard back from the Imperial War Museum, but I'm not sure how helpful they'll be. It looks like what they're offering is to set up an appointment to come look at their collection. If I had a passport and spare money for visiting London, I'd do this in a heartbeat. :)
So I've started doing deeper research on my own.
It looks like a lot of the service records were lost during bombings in WWII, but many do still exist. Plus there are secondary sources for things like the Royal Engineers and the Royal Field Artillery.
What I'm wondering now, though, is if those numbers by themselves can tell us anything. I notice on yours that the first two digits are separated a bit from the last three, and I can convince myself that mine has the same separation. So, I'm wondering if the first two digits tell us about division. If so, that suggests your razor is from the 26th division of the Royal Engineers.
But that doesn't seem to actually follow based on the pictures and resources I can find in the website with info about the 26th division. Also, there doesn't appear to have been a 77th division (though there was a 77th Battery associated with the RFA, it was part of the Indian army and stationed in Peshawar).
So, a bit more forward progress.
I'm still digging, and I'll be getting in touch with the guy from the Imperial War Museum to see if he can help.
One step closer. Thanks for all the research you are doing!
I've got names now. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastershake
Anyone with one of these razors can go to the National Archives and do a search on the markings.
Mine appears to have belonged to George Turner, a driver for the RFA, who died in France, September 9th, 1915. That really makes it a mystery how it got here! (I spent the $4 to buy the PDF of his medal card) CORRECTION: there were kind of a lot of George Turners driving in the RFA. The George Turner who owned my razor did not die. He went to the Western Front in France in October of 1915 and was discharged in June of 1916 due to sickness or wound. He got four medals.
Yours turns up... Kind of a lot more. It appears that multiple individuals can have the same regiment number. At least, based on that search it looks like there were four people who could all be 26044 RE: Charles Wells, George Jarrett, William Holden or Michael O'Toole.
However! Only one of those men has the number 26044 RE. George Jarrett, Sapper.
All the others have a WR/ appended to the 26044, and I have seen razors with that marking on them.
Unless I'm badly misreading this information, your razor belonged to George Jarrett.
That is awesome! I just got a chill reading this. Now my son who is a history fanatic said "That razor's mine now!"
That is amazing thanks alot for looking up my number. This forum is the greatest!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastershake
I am pretty stoked, here! Deciphering the information you can get from the National Archives isn't the easiest thing, but I'm happy to give it a crack for anyone who has one of these and wants to trace their razor.
great job voidmonster with the research!
I probably got something similar.Attachment 326544Attachment 326545
