Marshes & Shepherd history question!!

Okay. I picked up a 7/8ths Marshes and Shepherd with a diamond shaped tang, barbers notch, blade engraving(cutlers for His majesty), and this on the tang: (crown w/ VR underneath) then Marshes & Shepherd Ponds Works Sheffield.

I've seen people comment that the VR means 'Victoria's Reign'. I've also seen where " 'Sheffield' was only inscribed after 1890' was submitted by someone on this forum. According to the Wiki source on SRP, Marshes & Shepherd was only around until 1850.

As far as VR meaning 'Victoria's Reign', then why does it say "Cutlers To His Majesty"? According to the Wiki source here, M&S was around from 1825-1850...meaning, that for them to call themselves cutlers to His majesty would require my blade to have been made either under George IV (1820-1830) or William IV(1830-1837), would it not?

Could they have been able to keep the 'logo', or marketing slogan "cutlers to His majesty" on the side of the blade during the reign of Victoria? And if not, would it not be logical to assume that VR doesn't stand for 'Victoria's Reign'?

:banghead:

It wasn't Sheffield that was included after 1891 it was the country of origin, ie in this case England. VR is Victoria Regina, Queen Victoria in Latin (GR would be George Rex). I assume His Majesty refers to Albert, Victoria's husband and Prince Regent.

Costabro, the razor and stamp pictures would be very helpful.

Attachment 90460Attachment 90461

Best I can do with what I have.

Nice blade from the 1840s.:)
Can you show the blade tail?

Why "To His Majesty"?
Very difficultly to find a correct answer.
The stamp V(crown)R is more important here. IMO.
For example, I have a Rodgers set with "Cutlers To Their Majesties" on the tang and "Cutlers to Her Majesty"
on the box.
http://www.strazors.com/uploads/gall...rs_set_311.jpg

Attachment 90499

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Originally Posted by manah

Nice blade from the 1840s.:)
Can you show the blade tail?

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Again, best I can do!

What a beauty, love that hump backed tang.

VR is definitely latin - Victoria Regina - as stated above.

The history of the firm is pretty confusing, involving a number of different firms. William Marsh was from a long lineage of cutlers. His youngest son Samuel was sent to Sheffield in 1731 to learn his trade. William also taught Samuels son as an apprentice. His eldest son, William, was apprenticed to the cutler William Staniforth. The Marsh and Staniforth families were also linked by marriage. William's grandson William had married a Hanna Staniforth (which, amusingly, was the name of his grandfather;s bride!) A relative - May Staniforth - married Samuel Shephers in 1730.

Samuel Shepherd was the owner of the famous 'Y' and Maltese Cross mark with a crown over it, having been awarded it in 1716. It later (1758) became a well-known Marsh Brothers & Co mark. Samuel and Joseph Shepherd were sons of a scythemaker. Joseph became a master cutler. The son's of the first William Marsh noted above were all freemen of the Cutlers Company. When William died his widow Hanna capably ran the business. Hanna's eldest son James, first with his mother and then in partnership with his sons developed the company. By 1810 James was Assistqnt to the Cutlers Company and took his sons into partnership along with son-in-law Thomas Shepherd and they traded as James Marsh & Co. At the same period they moved from Park Hill to nearer the centre of the town.

In those times naming conventions and partners names in a firm were not formally fixed as they are today, and the firm had a few names that were used in 1815 (perhaps even as early as 1810), such as 'James Marsh & Co,' and @Marsh & Shepherd' (note that Marsh & Shepherd was the original - Marshes & Shepherd was a popular form of it that won out over time). In 1810 the firms stock account recorde one grinding wheel and six glazers for grinding and finishing; an 18 stone anvil and six hammers for forging; three hollow punches for makers marks; a whetstone for the joiners; four vices with fire irons, tongs, bellows, etc. The younger brothers were also mentioned in the accounts - they traded as John, William & Thomas Marsh and carried out work for James Marsh & Co.

The firm prospered during the Napoleonic Wars (as most Sheffield trades did) and during the post-war boom. By 1824 'Marsh & Shepherd' was dropped in favor of the more used 'Marshes & Shepherd.' The company by now had 11 grinding and finishing wheels and 11 forgers hearths and a great deal of the work was coming in from North America. The younger James Marsh was sent to Philadelphia in 1817 to man an office/warehouse there, but continued to live there for the rest of his life.

The eldest James Marsh retired in 1819, and the partnership was re-organised. He died in 1841. After 1819 the remaining partners (the three sons and son-in-law) took equal shares. There was another move, this time to Porter Street. The American trade soared to new highs. By 1825 Thomas Shepherd was the senior partner, and he was made Assistant of the Cutlers Company in 1826. Apparently he was not inclined to be made Master Cutler, and chose to pay a fine rather than accept the office in 1835! He died in 1845 and his interest in the firm passed on to his son, James Marsh Shepherd (now the American rep after the other James resigned in 1840).

For a long time the firm used steel bar made by others to forge knives, razors, etc; so in order to run their own converting and crucible furnaces, rolling mill and tilt hammers they acquired the Pond Workd of John Darwin at an auction in 1827. Long-drawn out legal processes meant that the property was not transferred until 1830, even though paid for in 1828. The 'ROXO' mark was granted in 1833. . In 1839 another James Marsh was made a partner, but he only stayed until 1844. Another partner was admitted in 1850, and another in 1851.

The name of Marshes & Shepherd lasted until 1846 when the firm was re-named Marsh Brothers & Co. So it had a fairly long run - 1810 to 1846. That would include the monarchs George III, George IV, William IV and Victoria. I'm not sure how long after the monarchs death the Royal Warrant marks are good for, but the Queen Mother's expired five years after she died and Queen Mary's after 25 years, so it is feasible that a razor made during Victoria's reign could have a warrant saying 'Cutlers To His Majesty' as well as 'Cutlers to Her Majesty' or even both!

Regards,
Neil

WOW! Neil, you really know your history! Double O

Thanks, Double-O.

Did you know that 'bouble-O' was the name of the small hollow-punch used by old sheffield cutlers to puch out washers from latten (a brass alloy)? So-called because it was an 'O' within an 'O' - it punched out the washer and the pin hole at the same time.

Regards,
Neil

Neil, where in the world did you find that information?!! I spent hours scouring the internet and found very little in the way of comprehesive information. I'm speechless.

It is with great displeasure that I report a tragedy of tragedies in the hopes that I might warn any potentially 'butter-fingered' soul of experiencing the same mournful loss that I am at this moment.

Always, never, fondle your 170 year old blade 5 ft. above concrete when showing your prized possession to others. As in my case, it may slip ever so stealthly from your hand in a downward, pitiful, magnetic vector to the unforgiving ground below yeilding an unforgettable 'ping' of a most decided separation of blade from tang. Woe is me.

Bummer. :(

Have to change the name of the town to Broken Razor now.

Where at in broken arrow do we send the cards and flowers?

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Where at in broken arrow do we send the cards and flowers?

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Well, I would say don't send cards or flowers, just $ to replace it; however, it only cost me $5 at a flea market......kinda' impossible to replace it anyway. Oh well. I keep telling myself, it's just crap. Everything's crap. Get over it. I'm getting there.....:rant:

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Originally Posted by Costabro

Well, I would say don't send cards or flowers, just $ to replace it; however, it only cost me $5 at a flea market......kinda' impossible to replace it anyway. Oh well. I keep telling myself, it's just crap. Everything's crap. Get over it. I'm getting there.....:rant:

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A bit of tequila helps through the tough spots. LOL

A LOT of tequila and you'll forget all about it for a while anyway. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Costabro

Well, I would say don't send cards or flowers, just $ to replace it; however, it only cost me $5 at a flea market......kinda' impossible to replace it anyway. Oh well. I keep telling myself, it's just crap. Everything's crap. Get over it. I'm getting there.....:rant:

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I don't think is all lost take a look at this picture, you could fit her with crushes
Attachment 92536

Double O