Hey folks, anyone familiar with this brand?Attachment 95545
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Hey folks, anyone familiar with this brand?Attachment 95545
HI Joe,
Funnily enough, that was once my razor! (see here)
There is very little information on who Ford was. Curiously enough, there is also next to no information on who the Ford in the well-respected Ford & Medley company of razor manufacturers was - perhaps the same person? There is a theory that a certain Esther P Ford was in Eccleshall Bierlow Union Workhouse at the same time as a certain John Medley - 1881 to be precise. Esther was a domestic servant and John was a spring knife cutter. The theory goes that during their time in the workhouse John taught Esther about cutlery and when they got out they started a company. It's an attractive theory, but founders in the cold light of day, as the company history of Ford & Medley records no John Medley and the firm was supposedly in existence before 1881 although their articles of incorporation are dated 1903. The fact remains, that although the history of the Medley's in the company is pretty comprehensive, there is no mention of who Ford could have been.
Regards,
Neil
Oh well, after a bit more research both of those attractive theories have been laid to waste! What a shame...
A directory listing of 1787 shows the mark to belong to a Jonathan Pitchford (not a 'Ford' after all!) of Stumperly. Another listing of 1797 records him as 'razorsmith'. Stumperly is in the district of Upper Hallam, a parish of Sheffield. The first listing shows his mark - a 'P' on its side with a dash then 'FORD' - under the dash is shown a heart, so undoubtedly this is the maker.
In 1782 he is known as renting the Rowell Bridge Wheel (water turned wheel used to power grinding troughs).
A directory listing of 1841 shows J. J. Pitchford, razor manufacturers (note the plural) at 56 Eldon Street. Possibly Jonathan and John?
A directory listing of 1846 shows a John Pitchford, razor manufacturer, residing at 65 Eldon Street.
In the year of the Great Sheffield Flood (1864), a John Pitchford filed a claim for loss of property. He is recorded as being a razor manufacturer in Eldon Street. The claim was in regard to damage to the Rowell Bridge Wheel and amounted to £220 exactly - the sum was agreed in 1865.
An 1871 listing records a Jonathan and William Pitchford, razor manufacturers, residing at 8 Eldon Street.
Another directory listing of 1905 shows J & W Pitchford, razor manufacturers, located at No. 8 Eldon Street.
So, by hiding his surname and making us think he was called Ford, Jonathan Pitchford hid quite a dynasty of razor makers!
Regards,
Neil
Holy cow, Neil, that's some amazing detective work you've done there! I had "borrowed" your photo above, as I recently came across another Pitchford razor and could find really nothing on the mark, other than your previous post. It's no doubt that Pitchford languishes in obscurity, after so effectively hiding his name. ;) Now I'm trying to make sense out of the mark. Perhaps the "P" was for Pitchford, the "Ford" was the tail end of the name, and there's some synonym for heart that sounds like "itch"? The mystery grows deeper...
Thanks much for the help, Neil!
Wow! I had wondered about the name! I have a nice one. Untouched! A beautiful razor in spite of my crappy photos! Great Thread! :rock:
Wild grind on that thing! She's a beauty!
Thank you and many thanks to Neil for the interesting info!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBass
Maybe the heart (love) means to get "hitched" aka married. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeBass
It could be something along those lines, perhaps, although the heart symbol is used in many makers marks. Interestingly enough, Pitchford rented part of the Rowell Bridge Wheel along with another knife maker - Luke Oates, whose trademark also had a heart in it:
Attachment 95810
There is some speculation about whether the letter is a "p", a "b" or a "q" - they used different orientations, usually left to right in a line rather than upright as shown in the illustration.
As far as the Pitchford company is concerned, they had a great deal of interest abroad, and their products were bought by Birmingham and Sheffield dealers who exported it. In 1907 the business moved to Shude Lane and Thomas Pitchford was the senior partner until 1925. In the 1930s the business was being run by Joseph and George Pitchford, but they ceased trading by 1945.
Regards,
Neil
Hmm..so it looks like the p or q or b, as well as the heart, had no relation to the maker's actual name. How odd. I wonder if there's anyone still living that would remember the reasons for the specific symbols, or if they were perhaps just chosen randomly as a sort of design trademark...
I feel that every nuance of maker's marks on all olde English products have great significance in this time period. There is much information avaliable in our age of information, however much is lost. I am grateful to Neil for doing fine research at the drop of a hat and keeping this info circulating. He has great local resources and uses them most proficiently! The answer is surely out there. Stimulating the search will eventually yield the answer! I suppose this is what we are doing here! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBass
Taking a SWAG here, could it possibly be P Hartford?
I can't find any razor makers by that name on google.
Well main at all I´m greeting to come into this place, I come frome Spain and my english is not too good but I spect you´ll be patients. but my little knowledge the P (heart) FORD is a very comun mark in straith razors in spain with a particular carey handle, an kind of handle with a Imperium decoration, but this razors crosses a lot of dates, the older I have is ones with the metal finishes withs brass flowers quite commun in XVIIIth century razors, another are crearly of the begining of the XIXth century and finaly at the end of this century and probably in the begining of the next. I´m agree with you wen signal the P lik a local mark and the heart and name too; the name of the maker provably was unknown, like waith razors or anonimus razors, I´m, of course, not sure wath place is into the mark but the temporal distance into the olders and the nearest is too beeg to think in the same family or the same maker, only an idea, wen I learn how must I could post Photos I´ll show you my P FORD razors, thanks for acept me into your place and complains for may english
Welcome to SRP Robert. Your English is much better than my Spanish! Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
Yes, Robert . pictures of your razors would be very interesting to see.
Tom
It is not an unknown maker (see post #3).
The mark is clearly ascribed to Jonathan Pitchford in the Cutlers Guild of Sheffield directory of corporate marks.
It then passed on along the family of Pitchford: J Pitchford / J J Pitchford / J Pitchford / J & W Pitchford - that little lineage spans (at least) from 1782 to 1905, probably longer.
The same name, the same family, but quite obviously not the same maker. Not unless he was related to Methuselah.
What happened to the mark after it was no longer in use by the Pitchford family is open to conjecture, as is the question whether it existed or not before it was noted as the property of the original Jonathan Pitchford. He either created the mark, or bought an existing mark. It may have been in his family before he recorded it as his own in the Register - family names do not spring out of thin air, after all, they have a habit of going back to time immemorial.
Makers marks (aka Corporate Marks) like other property have a value, not only intrinsic but also intangible. On acquiring the mark of another maker one supposes that the new owner trades beneficially on the goodwill engendered by previous sales of the old makers product and it therefore has an 'intangible' value - a value that is hard to apportion in terms of money. The practice goes on all the time now, and it went on all the time then.
In short, I can't see why this continues to be a mystery, when it is evidently well documented.
Regards,
Neil
Thanks Neil, and into this long cours of blade makers, are there any diference you saw into the mark comunkly knowledge?, could we take the diferences into the form of the blades and the form of tne handle a indicative normative to see a date or another, or only they be a diferent conformation of firent europe places, I habe a beeg doubdt about the simple normative to date a razor, straigth handle, more rect and straith blade etc. werr thanks for yous aportation and I take this moment to ask you, more informated than me, about the brass flower that cover some of the perns into the handle, like a decorative motive. Wat think about them, indicate it a particular datation?, thanks again, and very interesting and documented text
Thanks Robert.
I have only had three examples, but the mark was more or less the same. Here are pictures of two of them:
Attachment 106184Attachment 106185
Apparently the family came from Upper Hallam and were farmers with a leaning towards metalwork. The first Jonathan Pitchford recorded as a razor maker was granted the corporate mark in 1760. The works were first in Stannington, then Sandygate, then Eldon Street (1841) then Shude Lane (1907).
Joseph Pitchford and George Stanley Pitchford were the last recorded partners, George still being listed as a razor maufacturer at his home address in 1945, at which time the business in Shude Lane had shut down. So the lineage is even longer now!
While in Eldon Street John Pitchford and Jonatahan Pitchford were partners until 1852, followed by John Pitchford and William Pitchford until 1856 and it was during this period that the firms razors were traded by Sheffield and Birmingham agents and found their way over to Europe, where they were held in high esteem.
I agree with you that taking certain aspects of a razors appearance as a guide to date is not very precise, as fads come and go as they do today, but as a broad indication they do help. As for the bullseye washers or 'rosettes' that surround the pin, the actual type has to be taken into consideration, and even then the plainer types span quite a long period of time. In general the very wide, plain washers, domed in appearance and usually made of iron that are found on early razors - especially continental razors, being nearly as wide as the scales (particularly at the wedge end) are of very early date, c1750-70, although they are found in later razors too and simpler, smaller washers are also used on razors contemporary with the wide-washered razors, so this detail in isolation cannot be relied on.
Another type is the large bullseye washer, sometimes of iron, sometimes made of a brass/latten alloy. with concentric rings along the outer part before rising to a shallow dome in the middle seem to arise around the 1800s, although there are, of course, overlaps in styles once again which makes the actual date uncertain. Around the same sort of time we find the type that look like they have flower petal on them - the well-defined shapes seem to be the early part of the 1800s mainly, but the wider, less well-defined ones are probably earlier.
The very large decorative types seem to give way to the simpler, but still quite wide 'bullseye' washer, again sometimes of iron composition (earlier) and sometimes of brass/latten alloy (later). All types, including the earlier decorative ones, have smaller domed washers underneath them.
A lot of early types did not even have a washer/pin arrangement at the wedge, but relied on a pommel design. These are usually high-end razors and the material used to make the pommel was very often silver.
Using washer design on its own as a method of dating is highly speculative in my opinion, although taken together with other information, like the Pitchford makers, they would indicate whether it was an earlier or later maker, and if the different makers time periods are known I suppose it could be quite reliable.
Regards,
Neil
marvellous manah, do you know the date of this list?, well Neil, with my smalll english, I think I can understand all you say, or fairly all, I´m agree that the form of razors is a dangerous sistem to date them, here in Spain is usefull that P-Ford razors uses ever the same handle, withe the same decoration, I haved no time to fotograf my own razors, I have 3 of them, but I recently I buyed one that I think is too of that makers, I did´t recive it at the moment but I can show you the photo of the sellers web page
Attachment 106200Attachment 106201
they are not very good photos and the razos isn´t restaured but I guess you can see ones better in a few days, but Im sure you can see the rosette in the pin, and the horn decoration, after I´ll show yo more examples with the handle not straigt and without roseetes but with a similar decoration carved, the mais and the more interesting ting is that this razor seems to be from 1800s beginig ore before, but the blade is for my first see most modern, well is an example. I spect you can, and the res of the forus members, usdestand wee write because I realise my problems with english, but I´m sure that I´m not going to get better sucess with a google traductor, Im not used with the name you aply to the diferents parts os the razors, if you know how can I get a plan with them I´ll be quite greatefull, to get better the comunication.
The mark Alex shows is from the 1787 directory of Sheffield. Stumperley (see post #3) is/was a small town in Upper Hallam about 2 or 3 miles SW of Sheffield. At that time it was probably a home/farm address - many of the 'little meister' razor makers worked from their homes and even had a small furnace in the yard - rather than a 'works' or factory proper.
As for razor parts:
Attachment 106205
The bit at the back of the tang that is not mentioned is called the tail. The bits that surround the pins that we were talking about earlier are called 'washers' (bulls-eye, rosette, domed, etc according to shape). The 'tand' or 'shank' may be smooth top and bottom, or it may have ridges (called 'jimps') to aid grip. Jimps may be present on top of the tang, at that bottom of the tang, or top and bottom.
Purists prefer the term 'tip' to that of 'toe' but either will do!
Regards,
Neil
many many thanks
One of my P-Ford Razors note the washesarround the pin
Attachment 106299Attachment 106300Attachment 106301Attachment 106302
Great thread.
I just won one of these on the bay and am eager to receive it.
Attachment 202801Attachment 202802Attachment 202803
Seems to be an old manufacturer. If I read the history Neil helpfully provided, could date back to pre 1800??
Awesome.
Thanks for the history, love this forum..
Cheers.
The makers do yes. The razor you posted was made well in to the 1800's at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeB52
Anything pre 1800 will have either no tail(or stub) with no differentiation between the tang and the blade. It is pretty easy to spot a 1700's blade as they have unique blade profiles. Also scales pre 1800 are almost always straight.
Explains why it looks so new-ish. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DireStraights
I'm guessing, since it's still in the mail from Europe, that it's around mid 18's as from Neil's history the name was in operation till almost 1900. The scale material I'm curious about too. Horn, maybe tortoise.. Hard to tell the shading in the pics. I also wonder if it's been already reworked some.
Ah well, wanted the name and like the toe profile.
Cheers and thanks for the info.:chapeau
Attachment 231354Attachment 231355Attachment 231356
I managed to get this Pitchford razor today, out in the wild. nice heavy wedge type blade.
Wow! What a beaut! ;)
Congrats.
That is a great looking razor.
How do they shave?
This one shaves quite nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by tntltl
Attachment 231545
I hope to have mine cleaned up and honed up at the weekend, I will post more pics then.
Thanks for your comments.
