Barrel trade marks from Wigan and Salford

I have been fortunate to aquire a nice razor dealt from an old ironmonger in Wigan, England and one from another dealer in nearby Salford. The larger one was sold by J.M.Hall in Wigan, located on the river Douglas. I enjoyed learning about old Wigan back in the day. It seems the first coal mine was established there in 1450 and things really ramped up there during the Industrial Revolution. At one point, there was said to be 1000 mine shafts within 5 miles of the town center! In fact, a town chancellor was quoted as saying a coal mine in the backyard was not uncommon.
I actually came across a story of a small train pushing coal carts across town in 1945 disappearing down a forgotton mineshaft which opened up! They filled it in and left a stone for the engineer! J.M. Hall was an Ironmonger there and sold all sorts of things. I found pics of his establishment from the early 1900's.
I found it difficult to believe that, in spite of his "cutler" proclamation on the blade, that Mr. Hall was cranking out razors in back of his shop and wondered if he actually made it, or just dealt it.
Then, I came across a razor with the name of T. Smith of Salford, just 25 Km down the road from Wigan with the same trademark on the reverse tang as the blade etch of the J.M. Hall razor. Salford seems to have been a hub for textiles, cotton and spinning, located by Manchester on the river Irwell. With my resources, I could not find a thing about T. Smith
I now feel that both of these men were dealers and the razors were made by the same maker as they both share the same trademark and undeniable features. Question is: who made these razors? Perhaps Mr. Hall made them both? The stamped signature on the tang of the Wigan one seems to be more of a maker's mark than the T. Smith of the Salford razor, which looks "added on". One day, I shall make it across the pond and see these old places. Fascinating History.

Thanks for sharing, great background and a very good looking razor.

Thank you for sharing Sharptonn. These are some good looking razors you've got there. You're spot on with the history there mate. As an honorary Lancastrian (I spent about 10 years in Lancashire whilst at uni or 'college', as you would say, in Manchester and did my internship there as well), your razors have a special appeal to me. Lancashire epitomizes the North/South divide that used to exist (maybe still exists) in England where the South had mostly nobility and the upper class whilst the North comprised mainly of the working class. Whilst Sheffield was the steel and metals hub, the Manchester region mostly specialised in textile. Salford being a borough of Greater Manchester, still has the spinning mills, although most of them have been converted to apartments these days. It's always a pleasure taking a stroll by the canals that where used for shipping cotton on old barges. Whilst not being very familiar with the Wigan area, I understand that some of the coal mines are still around with a few having been converted to museums.

With regards to the razors themselves, I'm afraid I'm not of much help, as interestingly these are quite rare to spot for us Brits. One person who might help with the provenance though is Neil Miller and it might be worth shooting him a quick PM.

Oh well, I you ever decide to part with these beauties, I'd be grateful if could let me know first.

Kind regards,

Ash

Indeed, Thanks, Ash! To be honest, I never start a thread as this without PM'ing Neil!
They are certainly more fun with him aboard!
As to fun, your response was fun to read and very informative. I know we have a member from Wigan. Got to get him here as well.
Thanks!
Tom

Interesting post for sure, and those razors are beautiful ! i was looking on google and put the address and did the streetview and you can see the same building as your 2nd pic pretty cool stuff! Unfortunately i didnt find any barrel trademark!

Tom - the corporate or trade mark on your razor is most probably that of John Petty & Sons from Sheffield.

Attachment 105693

John Petty was first a pen blade grinder in Solly Street in 1841, then a grocer in Gargen Street in 1851 then started making blades again at the Perth Works in Garden Street by 1868. He is most noted as a knife and cutlery maker, but he also made razors, some of which were stamped 'magnetic' - he died in 1887 at which time his son John Thomas Petty took over the company. It looks like the son changed the corporate mark in 1888:

Attachment 105694

So your razor must predate this change of mark.

As far as J.M. Hall goes there are two likely looking suspects! The first is John Matthew Hall, born in Sheffield in 1836 but relocating to Wigan. His occupation is listed as carrier and ironmonger in the 1901 census and his address was 26 Church Street, Wigan.

The other suspect - and the most likely one to my mind - is John Malkin Hall, also born in 1836 in Sheffield, but relocating to Wigan. His occupation was listed as cutler, grinder and ironmonger in the 1881 census and his address was 25 Millgate, Wigan. So at least we know he was a bona-fide cutler, even though in this instance the razors were made by Petty. Millgate is just a short distance from Library Street:

Attachment 105695

I found a few matches for T. Smith, but nothing worth noting - too tenuous! Like you, I suspect he was either an ironmonger/hardware shop/hairdresser or similar who bought razors from Petty with his name stamped on the tang.

Regards,
Neil

Many Thanks, Neil, This seems to answer the question. Also, It seems to date the razors as pre-1888. I now I wonder about the corporate mark granted 1791?
I suppose it was previously granted to someone else and then aquired by John Petty?
Tom

The marks entered in the ledger held at the Cutlers Guild in Sheffield were often re-let if the last user had died or not renewed them, Tom, or they were sold or acquired by taking over a business, so a certain mark could go back a long way. After John Petty's death, the firm took over W Gregory and Sons (formerly acting as distributors for J Petty & Sons wares) and acquired their corporate marks of a hammer with 'W' and 'G' around it and a saw crossed with an axe:

Attachment 105698

The takeover of Gregory's was around 1907. All the marks were included on a visiting card:

Attachment 105699

and you can just make out the original Petty corporate mark on an old coffin-style razor box:

Attachment 105700

John Petty's mark also appears on a butcher knife stamped 'Bitterling Ltd' - although there is/was a firm of E A Bitterling Ltd, manufacturers of heavy catering equipment for butchers,

Attachment 105702

it is not clear if this firm is the same as it was registered in 2007. It is also unclear if the mark on this butchers knife pre-dates John Petty's use of it.

You can see from the first pic that Joseph Mills & Co and A. Argyle & Co were also taken over by John Petty & Sons, who obtained their corporate marks too, Mills & Co is the judges head, Argyle & Co is the pig.

Regards,
Neil

Very interesting and enlightening, Neil. Once again. I am in gratitude for your expertise and willingness to share.
Many Thanks,
Tom

Hello Tom. Just thought you'd like to see my latest J.M Hall Wigan razor.

Not as nice as yours I'm afraid, but interesting nonetheless.

Attachment 133993Attachment 133994Attachment 133995Attachment 133996Attachment 133997

The coffin style box is nicer than the razor, appearing to be ebonised papier-mache.

Of more interest, I've recently bought a number of documents belonging to J.M Hall from the late Victorian and early Edwardian period, including one of their invoices:-

Attachment 134000Attachment 134001

No barrel trademark, but I'm happy to add it to my collection of Wigan items

Kind regards,

Andy

Nice, Andy! It definitely looks to be restorable. Apparantly, Mr Hall had a pile of boxes made for selling razors from many makers with his stamp on them. My box looks identical to yours and so does the box of VVTI's razor in this thread, which was made by Brookes and Crookes, I believe as he states it has a bell on the backside of the tang: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...sor-8-8-a.html Anything on the back tang on yours? It might be a clue to the maker!

Hi Tom, thanks for your speedy reply. No marks at all on the rear of the tang, just a bit of corrosion....

I've just added a new thread about another recently acquired razor & box, sadly neither from Wigan

Cheers,

Andy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Tom - the corporate or trade mark on your razor is most probably that of John Petty & Sons from Sheffield.

Attachment 105693

John Petty was first a pen blade grinder in Solly Street in 1841, then a grocer in Gargen Street in 1851 then started making blades again at the Perth Works in Garden Street by 1868. He is most noted as a knife and cutlery maker, but he also made razors, some of which were stamped 'magnetic' - he died in 1887 at which time his son John Thomas Petty took over the company. It looks like the son changed the corporate mark in 1888:

Attachment 105694

So your razor must predate this change of mark.

As far as J.M. Hall goes there are two likely looking suspects! The first is John Matthew Hall, born in Sheffield in 1836 but relocating to Wigan. His occupation is listed as carrier and ironmonger in the 1901 census and his address was 26 Church Street, Wigan.

The other suspect - and the most likely one to my mind - is John Malkin Hall, also born in 1836 in Sheffield, but relocating to Wigan. His occupation was listed as cutler, grinder and ironmonger in the 1881 census and his address was 25 Millgate, Wigan. So at least we know he was a bona-fide cutler, even though in this instance the razors were made by Petty. Millgate is just a short distance from Library Street:

Attachment 105695

I found a few matches for T. Smith, but nothing worth noting - too tenuous! Like you, I suspect he was either an ironmonger/hardware shop/hairdresser or similar who bought razors from Petty with his name stamped on the tang.

Regards,
Neil

---

Hello again Neil.

I've just been through the J M Hall documents in my collection which were all obtained from the same source and found some interesting information.

As well as the J M Hall invoice for 17 Market Place, Wigan, I have an invoice from Pendlebury & Co which is made out to "J M Hall Church St" and dated 1898, so this would seem to indicate J M Hall is John Matthew Hall:-

Attachment 134035

Other documents refer to an Elizabeth Hall, including payments to Wigan Council for private works at Eccleston St and Dicconson Terrace for dates up to 1915

However...the 1881 Worrall's Wigan and District Directory refers to John Malkin Hall at 25 Millgate Wigan:-

Worrall's Wigan and District Directory, 1881 :: wiganworld

I think this raises more questions than answers, but interesting none the less.

Kind regards,

Andy

Hello again Tom.

I e-mailed the vendor of the invoice I didn't win and he has kindly given permission for me to upload the image here:-

Attachment 134097

It is from William Gregory and Sons to J.M Hall and dated 1896.

It's nice that it fits in with what Neil said about the likely origin of the Barrel mark......I just wish I'd won the auction !!

Kind regards,

Andy