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Hi there,
I've a few filarmonica #13 razors and Max and I have been trying to identify their origin. The odd thing is that they don't have Jose Monserrat Pou written on them and the boxes aren't the "usual" coffin that we're used to...
Can anyone help based on these pictures?
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/560/wp000305y.jpg http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/507/wp000303r.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/42/wp000302i.jpg http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/442/wp000301f.jpg
I have seen those. I am no Filarmonica expert, but it seems they are late production. Someone will know something.
Yeah, max had a good point - these started popping up pretty recently, after fillys got all hyped up. So it's at least curious....
However, if you have a capability to make a razor, etching, boxes, scales etc... I think it would be more lucrative to go in the custom business...
Yeah, 'd say they are later production Filarmonica's.
I have a few of those, and was told by a few knowledgable chaps that they are most likely made in the mid sixties up until they closed up shop in the late 80's
They were in business untill 1990 so definately a late production. Its real!Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
You know I am not so sure about that, I think you should package them up and send them the short distance from Seattle to Sandpoint and I will "THOROUGHLY" test them for you.. It might take a few years of honing and shaving them to make sure that there are genuine, but at least you will feel comfortable after that... :p
I do indeed think they are legit late production. I have seen those same razors on ebay by seller jappannippon.
The reason that Jose Monserrat Pou is not on the tang is that the razor was made after his death - he died in 1971. The business carried on - Jose Monserrat Pous, Sons, SA - until 1997, when the company was dissolved. Interestingly, a trademark renewal from 1978 lists the company as makers of soaps and cosmetics. The mark was obtained by spanish company Buenos Hermanos SA / Barbeta Juan Marba, who filed for the trademark in 1997 and were approved in 1999. They registered the mark in 1999 and renewed it in 2005 and as far as I know they still own it. The famous mark can now be seen adorning hairdressers scissors, one of the core businesses of Buenos Hermanos.
Regards,
Neil
Indeed, they don't just make razors you know!
| Beauty Accessories - Tijeras y cuchillos profesionales 3 Claveles
Great info Neil!Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Would you know anything about the actual stop date for production of straights?
I did manage to find one who worked for the company for a couple years in the early seventees via a friend in the Spanish embassy up here. He was a driver for them.
He seemed to remember very few razors being made after the seventees but couldn't be very precise, and he left the company before the changes that you told about occured.
Hi Birnando,
Jose Monserrat Pou E Hijos (JMS & Son) produced razors without Jose Monserrat Pou's name on the tang, including the Sello Doro, but the son did not survive his father very long and the company passed into the hands of the daughter, who along with her step-father stopped investing in the company. Changes in the Spanish Civil Code (CC) in 1985 saw a huge drop-off in sales to barbers and hairdressers. The prohibition had something to do with Swedish Steel, which was in use by the factory at that time, and fabrication from Italian and Pakistani sources was sought, hence the drop-off in quality of some of the last runs of razors. The last production run is supposed to have been in early 1990 - the actual US filing of the trademark was cancelled on the 25th of January 1990 (its first filing in the US seems to have been in 1940) and it was acquired by Margaret Frenkel Goldstein of Weiss, Dawid, Fross, Zelnick & Lehrman of 633 Third Avenue, NY. The very last razors seem to have no tang marks whatsoever.
The fact that the last razors had no tang markings could be something to do with not renewing the trademark, I suppose.
Attachment 117410
Regards,
Neil
Not wanting to stir the pot but as of today Jan 8 2013 it is still a live trademark.
Attachment 117415
You didn't read my first post thoroughly Martin! You haven't stirred the pot.
Regards,
Neil
Also the Filarmonica Doble Temple trademark was cancelled in 1983.
Attachment 117423
Is he known to sell legit stuff? I got those from someone else I know...Quote:
Originally Posted by lz6
I think they are not legit and I`m not an expert at all but if they looks like this Navaja de afeitar Filarmonica I will question them big time.
Neil, Might you know when JMP produced the Imperials? Mine has the Eagle logo on the tang,#14 imperial on the other side,JMP is not on the tang but si on the orig box,which I cannot Locate:(
Why would ya? It even has the JMP on the tang.... 700 euros though - yikes!Quote:
Originally Posted by proximus26
OK,
what i wan tto say if they do not looks like one i have posted and do not have mark of $700 :-) Really I don`t know much about Filarmonica. I know that Sword&Crown mark was copied in thousands and there is many fakes that can be found for sell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olbez
It's actually over $900... That's incredible!Quote:
Originally Posted by proximus26
Pixelfixed - the usual but unsubstantiated) answer is "pre 1967" however, the subject is more complicated than that (it always is, isn't it!). There is a clear demarcation point - the earlier Imperials do not have the JMP markings, while the later ones do.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
The very early boxes seem to be mostly unadorned by printing, black, with a series of raised ribs (like chevrons) on them.
On one forum I read words to the effect that 'it seems strange that we know more of some Sheffield firms that stopped trading 150 years ago than we do about JMP which closed about two decades ago' - how true!
Regards,
Neil
The actual change in Spanish Civil Code was the ban of open razors in barbershops, salons, etc to control the spread of diseases like HIV, Hepatitis etc. In order to make razors to the same steel formulation JMP had to contract to import a huge amount of Swedish steel, and the fall-off in sales made such a large capital expenditure impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Regards,
Neil
Surely Mr Filarmonica would have been able to source it's steel from their own steel industry?
I am surprised that they imported it.
Has anyone been in contact with the current manufacturer regarding history or re introduction of straight razors?
I am quite sure they did, jaycey. Even so, steel is an alloy - Sheffield steel for instance relied on swedish ore as did german: in fact before swedish ore became readily available spanish and russian ore was alloyed with the native british steel. It stands to reason that the same type of scenario held true for spanish steel, even though they have the famed Toledo Steel which was used in Filarmonicas according to an old thread on this site. When the company was not invested in (after the father and then the son died) and began its downward spiral, I suppose economies had to be made - they bought what they could afford. I have no doubt that Swedish ore was added to Toledo steel, but I don't have a clue what they cost relevant to each other. The fact of the matter is not really the price of the swedish steel, but its unit cost - I guess they had to buy it in large, set units and could no longer afford to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycey
Regards,
Neil
I must to be a knwoledge in filarmonicas, musn´t be?, but for me the Jose Monntserrat Pou is an medium razor, I remember in one on my folarmonicas box som like "since 1907", but i can not find this box, well, The firs filarmonicas used to bing anothe mark stamped in the axel with anoyher german fabric, so i think in the begining the creator of the mark imported axels ta german and mak them with his stamp, after you have the famous 14, everybody habe one of them, my older filarmonica is in acetato with silver decoraton around 1920, an 14, you have too the bullfigther series 1950- and after, and the doble temple and medalla de oro twice around 1955-65, after the death of Jose Montserrat apear the novodour, shoter than his precedents but too useful and a bit mor strong with hard bears, a kind for hard bears after the civir war, an a kind for soft skin, and another for hair cut, the price if i undertand ok is a nousense, 10 or at last 20 euros is enauth for one of the clasic ones and 5 for one of the last ones with the scals made of bad blue and green plastic, i forgot them years ago, of course have trhee or four, one aligator and one nude woman with the scales of colored ivory, like jewels only, but in spanish kinds i prefer palmera or Montserrat with an leopard like trademark, i can not remember more sorry, regards
Phew, now that was hard to read. Probably the longest sentence ever! :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoreigosmendez
If you could write this in Spanish I will do a better translation of it for you. I think there's some useful information here but your English is a little hard to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoreigosmendez
But thank you for trying:)
En eso estoy seguro jaicey y disculpas previas pues uno hace lo que puede, os decia que las Filarmonicas siempre han sido aqui en España una navaja media regular, en un principio las mas viejas se conocen por tener hojas exageradamente largas y doble sello en las mismas uno con la filigrna de Jose Montserrat Pou y otro con diferentes casas alemanas como Dos Hermanos etc; siempre han sido las mas apreciadas, en ese momento era habitual que la casa vendedora pusiera tambien su sello inciso en el acero, como "vacidores hermanos aquilino, lugo, calle real 13" por poner un ejemplo, pues estas primeras filarmonicas basicamente importaciones de otro catalan inteligente mas tenian la calidad de muchas otras procedentes de lolingen mas caras y dificiles de encontrar, aqui seguiamos usando la navaja tipica para hacer lo que se podia a por lo cual las nvajas de afeitar inglesas y alemanas eran una innovacion, te hablo de finales del XIX, propiamente dichas solo conozco el caso de las navajas de afeitar españolas toledanas de los tiempos del acero de herradura del S. XVII y XVIII, luego hasta bien entrado el 20 no hicimos nada propio. Dentro de las filarmonicas tienes la famosa 14, todos tenemos alguna, en ese tipo de las primeras en aparecer solo con el emblema de Jose Montserrat Pou, hay los tipos para barba dura y piel suave, generalmente de acetato o celuloide con incristaciones en plata del anagrama de filarmonica o decoraciones de tipo modernista con pajaritos etc, solo conozco la llamada cocodrilo y la llamada mujer desnuda labradas en marfil, las dos las tengo pero mas como joyas que como navajas de uso, todas son hollow, como deciis por allá, una serie de los 50 llevaba en la hoja una escena de toreo, marcada al acido, y luego no hay que olvidar el famoso adelanto de los 40 de doble temple marcadas en un inicio en la hoja con el texto en plata y oro, mucho ruido y pocas nueces; luego de la muerte del fundador aparece la novodour, mas corta que sus hermanas pero muy comoda, con las cachas en platico malo azul verde y otros tonos chillones, se conocen bien; franmente tengo mis dudas que Filarmonica usara alguna vez hojas españolas, al contrario de palmera una gran marca o Montserrat con un leopardo de angrama de gran calidad igualmente, ya os comenté que he tenido una caja de filarmonica de los 50 que ponia algo asi como "desede 1907) asi que no espereis nada del XIX y mucho menos anterior, os mando una retrospectiva en imagenes desde las mas antiguas que conozco hasta las mas comunes, las ilustradas en la hoja y las que convinan hojas alemanas con mangos de filarmonica como vereis los ejes son los originales, al fin y al cabo Jose Montserrat solo era un comerciante catalan mas que vio negocio en lo que otros como de costumbre en estas tierras no se atrevian, un saludo y disculpas por mi ingles Attachment 117953Attachment 117954Attachment 117955Attachment 117956Attachment 117957Attachment 117958Attachment 117959Attachment 117960Attachment 117961
Nice work, Roberto! I can read your English with very little problem, but no one could read my Spanish!
Now, a translation from Jaycey in London! :D
We are international not every members primary or native language is English, Roberto is from Spain.Quote:
Originally Posted by olbez
Thanks it´s all i can do.......:shrug: i guess my inform are usefull for youQuote:
Originally Posted by dustoff003
regards from Galiza
Gracias Roberto por tu valiosa contribución.
OK, here goes...Please understand that I cannot do a word for word translation as it wouldn't make any sense at all. This is my interpretation of what Roberto has written.
The Filarmonica razors in Spain have always been considered as an every day razor. The oldest ones have extremely long blades and a double stamp, one with Jose Montserrat Pou and another one with different german houses names like Dos Hermanos...These have always been the most sought after. It was normal to have a the selling companies will have their stamp on the blades like "vacidores hermanos aquilino, lugo calle real 13" as these first filarmonicas were imports from another catalonian and they were of better quality than the than many others by Solingen that were more expensive and difficult to source. Here we were still using the typical razors and the english and german razors were more innovative, I am talking about the end of the 19th century. In Spain I only know razors made in Toledo from shoe horse steel from the 17th and 18th century and nothing new was produced in Spain until well into the 20th century.
Amongst the filarmonica razors there is the famous 14, we all have one of these, there were the first ones featuring only the Jose Montserrat Pou stamp. There were two types one for barbas duras (hard beard) and another for soft beard, their scales generally made of acetate or celluloid engraved with Jose Montserrat Pou stamp in silver or with modernists decorative motives like birds etc... I only know two, one named " crocodile " and the other one called the naked woman both engraved in ivory. I own both, more like collectible's than for use. They are all hollow ground. A fiftys series of them had a bull fighting scene (medallon taurino) etched with acid and lets not forget about the big innovation of the 40s, doble temple marked on the blade with the writing in silver and gold, there was a lot of hype behind it.
After the death of the founder there was a new release, the well known " novodour", shorter than the others but more comfortable to use with the scales made of bright coloured plastic.
I doubt that filarmonica ever used spanish blades (steel?) unlike Palmera and Montserrat with a leopard as a stamp, both great brands.
I have mentioned this before, i have a filarmonica box from the 50s and it says on it " since 1907" so do not expect to find any from the 19th century or earlier. I am sending you a retrospective in images from the oldest I know to the more common ones, the ones with illustrations on the blades and the ones combining german blades with filarmonica scales and as you can see on the pins, they are the original ones. at the end of the day Jose Montserrat was only a clever catalonian business man who saw a business opportunity where other people in this country did not dare to go. Greetings and apologies for my english.
Abur,Adeu, Agur, Adios:)
Thats what I got too........:D
Nice Job, jaycey! :tu
My oldest JMP,blade is huge at 7/8-3.25 long,re-scaled in Ivory ( the trashed orig scales were red bakilite) one of my best shavers,I think from the 1920s.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...one/JMP001.jpg
I´m agree, you´ll get all you can, is a great traslation of my ieroglific, but if i´d write in my original lenguage (potuguese) sure will be worse, about the JMP of red baquilite scales I think could be of the 30s or 40s oround our civil war, unfourtunaly we habe not an writen history around JMP and sons, and alwais speak by talking references. Here you habe a pair of articles writen in 1924, I habe not the originals, too spensives, but provably can tell us something about the pre civil war razor factoryes. Muito obrigado e minhas disculpas per o meu mao inglés, mas ca nao he costume ensinar ás crinças idiomas de fora, o pouco que conheço e produto de dois meses em Wesport, milhor falando, saudos a tudos. Attachment 117986Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
I just had a Filarmonica 13 on my stones!
http://imageshack.us/a/img845/7725/dscf7969i.jpg
Softer steel than I thought it would have, small nice bevel.
Started with Botan nagura on Nakayama kiita, then the rest of naguras... sharpen sharpen swisch swosch and did the last on my Otaniyama.
Double post!
