Size vs. Grind

There are a lot of posts out there where people ask about the differences between the various sizes of razor and others where people ask about differences between the various grinds. The reality (IMHO) is that razor performance/feel is the result of a combination of these factors and I thought it might be interesting to have a thread that consideres both of these issues in conjunction - especially for newbies.

To start things off, here are my observations (based on just under two months of straight shaving - in which time I've acquired over a dozen razors of various types).

The smallest razors I have are 5/8 - I have a couple of full hollows, a 1/2 hollow and a 1/4 hollow. The full hollows are just too light for my very heavy, coarse beard and, while I can get a decent shave from them, there's a fair bit of work involved. I was going to write off 5/8 razors entirely until I tried a 1/2 hollow and, just this morning a 1/4 hollow. These razors are MUCH stiffer and heavier than the full hollow razors and do a good job on my beard. While I wont' be buying any more 5/8 full hollows, I would be happy to add a couple more of the stiffer razors to my collection. I enjoy the maneuverability of the 5/8 razors and the combination of the smaller size and heavier grind is a great combination. My heavier 5/8 shave as well as any of my 6/8 razors.

I have several 6/8 razors in my collection including full hollows, 1/4 and 1/2 hollows. The 6/8 has quickly become my favourite size as any 6/8 will do the job on my beard comfortably and is a great combination of size and weight - heavy enough to go against the grain in the chin area, but still small and maneuverable. Again, I tend to prefer the heavier grinds, which just seem to work better for me.

The biggest razors in my collection are 7/8 and are allow full hollows. I find the 7/8 to be much bigger and heavier than my 6/8 razors and I have to concentrate more to avoid lopping off my nose or ear (I nicked my ear badly the first time I used my 7/8!). I have a Bartman and Fridour and these seem to be heavy stiff razors and go through my beard like butter. I don't have any heavier grinds in this size, but I do like the heft of these razors and may purchase a heavier grind in this size.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've noticed a trend among newbies to rush to bigger razors and I think people should consider grind as much as size. Especially given that larger razors are harder to learn with - based on my personal experience, I think someone should shave with a 5/8 or 6/8 for a while before jumping to a 7/8 or bigger razor.

In my view a 1/2 hollow or heavier grind razor performs similarly to a razor one size larger and newbies should give as much consideration to moving to a heavier grind as they do to a larger razor. The really nice thing about the heavier razors is that you get the shave of a larger razor while still retaining the control/maneuverability of a smaller razor - which reduces the likelihood of nicks and cuts, as well as making it easier to learn to shave the tough bits.

While there are fewer heavier grind razors out there, if you look for them they do turn up on e-bay and I bought my fully refurbished, shave-ready 1/2 hollow 5/8 and 1/4 hollow 6/8 razros from altima for about $35 each. Randy was selling some NOS 1/4 Otto Hess 5/8 razors a little while ago for $60 (they're gone now and I was lucky enough to acquire one from a board member).

As far as new razors go, I believe the TI "le Gnome" razors are the only standard production 1/2 hollows that go for under $100 (Classicshaving sells the 5/8 for $70 and the 6/8 for $80) and I'm definitely going to add one of these to my collection.

Dovo does make a 4/8 stainless steel french point in a wedge grind and it sells for $75 - its too bad this razor doesn't come in a 5/8, as I'm sure there would be a lot of takers. However it might suit people who like smaller razors and would likely perform like a larger razor.

John Crowley sells some 1/4 hollow Wacker razors, but they're pricer ($150), but are supposedly good shavers.

A couple other options for people looking for smaller heavier/stiffer razors include stainless steel razors (stiffer generally and the Fridours in particular are heavy for their size) and frameback razors.

This post is much longer than I intended, but I do think its useful for newbies who are looking for a heavier/stiffer razor to be aware that moving to a larger razor is not necessarily their only - or best - option.

Hope people find this interesting/useful.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by suzuki

The full hollows are just too light for my very heavy, coarse beard and, while I can get a decent shave from them, there's a fair bit of work involved. I was going to write off 5/8 razors entirely until I tried a 1/2 hollow and, just this morning a 1/4 hollow. These razors are MUCH stiffer and heavier than the full hollow razors and do a good job on my beard. While I wont' be buying any more 5/8 full hollows, I would be happy to add a couple more of the stiffer razors to my collection. I enjoy the maneuverability of the 5/8 razors and the combination of the smaller size and heavier grind is a great combination. My heavier 5/8 shave as well as any of my 6/8 razors.

---

I think is your inexperience talking - I used to think the same thing when I was getting started, and I eventually learned better. The stiffer blades are more forgiving of inadequate sharpness, prep, and technique than the extra hollow blades, but as you get more experience this stops being an issue, at some point your everyday honing, and everday routine are good enough for the little flexy-flyers. Even so, there's a *lot* of variation in stiffness between different full hollow razors. Henckels Friodurs are quite stiff, for example, while the Dubl Duck Wonderedge is basically a sharpened piece of foil, and as this is *steel* we're talking about it doesn't take a quarter hollow or wedge blade to resist flexing against your beard, no matter how hard and tough you think it is. It just needs to be sufficiently sharp, and your prep and technique needs to be sufficiently good, and you can get a great shave from those little extra hollow 5/8s without undue effort. I've noticed that in recent months I've stopped shaving with my 7/8+ razors, and even my 6/8s are getting scant attention compared to the little 5/8s razors, which except for the TI Pierre LE are all extra hollow or 4/4 hollow razors. Unfortunately this realization has triggered a RAD binge, but fortunately 5/8 extra hollows are cheap as dirt on ebay :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mparker762

I think is your inexperience talking

---

This may definitely be a factor - but I know there are more experienced members on the board who have made comments to the effect that a full hollow 5/8 may not be the best razor for shaving very coarse, heavy beards. I also agree that the specific steel used, thickness of spine, etc. also make a difference and that stainless razors are stiffer than comparable carbon razors.

However, in my defence, I've always had a problem getting my chin BBS regardless of what razor I've used - cartrige, DE, GEM, injector - of all of these, the injector gave me my best shaves and I attribute this to the thicker blade (the GEM did a good job, but I just found it awkward to use). I've always had to do multiple passes and need to do an across the grain pass before the against the grain - regardless of which razor I use. I've been wetshaving with brush and cream/soap for several years, so I think my prep is decent.

I've had almost all of my razors honed by someone else and can get several shaves from a razor before I need to refresh it, so again, my technique is at least decent (I'm not rolling edges, over-honing), etc. However, I will concede that there is definitely room for improvement.

As I said, I can get a good shave from my lightest 5/8 razors, it just takes more time and more passes. Which leads me to the conclusion that, for me, a heavier/stiffer 5/8 works better for me and may work better for others with heavy and/or coarse beards. Again, there's a lot of personal preference involved - there are lots of very experienced straight shavers who prefer heavier grinds/larger blades.

I think you make a good point in that, given proper technique (razor care, beard prep, shaving), you should be able to get a good shave from any size razor. In this regard I think that all newbies (and I include myself in this group) should continually evaluate their technique in all of these areas.

The purpose of my post was to give some information to nebies (newer than I am!) about the effect that grind can have and that they might want to consider trying different grinds instead of just rushing to a wider blade. Especially, if, as you say, the heavier grinds are more forgiving - which can be a good thing when you're just starting out.

I tend to share your view that the "smaller" razors are great shavers - in fact, I have a 7/8 Fridour that I like very much and decided to get a 6/8 stainless razor as I wanted a smaller razor in stainless - I have no doubt that the 6/8 will get more use than the 7/8. I also find that my heavier 5/8 razors are among my favourite shavers and another pupose of my original post was to prevent newbies from too quickly writing this size off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by suzuki

This may definitely be a factor - but I know there are more experienced members on the board who have made comments to the effect that a full hollow 5/8 may not be the best razor for shaving very coarse, heavy beards.

---

If you check the old posts, you'll discover that I was one of those "more experienced members" making comments to that effect. I was wrong - while they aren't the best for shaving very coarse, heavy beards when you're just starting, once you've developed enough technique and honing abilities then they're just fine. Leaning on the heavier grinds is fine, and I still love my half hollow razors, but don't assume that because you prefer them now that you always will, because this is much more dependent on non-beard factors than you think. I'm sure you do get better shaves from the bigger half hollow razors *right now* - I went through this myself many months ago and it was a real surprise to discover that the razors I had scorned as too wimpy for my tough beard turned out to be outstanding shavers for my tough beard.

All of the problems you mention with your beard aren't unique -- there are lots of other guys out there with similar issues. I couldn't get my chin smooth without razor burn either until I figured out how to do it, now it's trivial even with the most flexible blades. I've got these patches on the sides of my chin that used to jam up electric razors, and DE blades would pop and snap from the flexing as they went over that area, and now it just doesn't matter if the straight is a sharp piece of foil or a wedge, they don't so much as cough or bobble while shaving those areas. Eventually, I just learned how to shave those areas easily.

My concern is that it's too easy to use the heavier, stiffer razors as a crutch and never develop the proper technique that enables the same level of comfort with the lighter razors. Certainly there's no merit badge or bragging rights to shaving with the extra hollow razors, but you should be wary of false confidence just because you can muddle through a shave with the "right" razor.

I think we need to look back in history in this discussion. back in the 1800s wedges were about the only thing available and as the makers got more sophisticated as the 20th century approached they started with various hollow grinds until the double hollow was perfected. Once it was almost no one looked back. So the question you have to ask yourself is if the older grinds were superior why did they pretty much stop making them? Maintanance reasons? Maybe. Certainly a wedge or 1/4 hollow is easier to produce than a full or double hollow.

I think like anything else its what you like. Some guys like driving a car with a stick while most want an auto tranny. There are many here who love big razors and think only a big razor will give them a great shave just like many who think only a wedge will give them a great shave. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but to me, and I feel very strongly about this a properly honed 4/8s will shave you as good and comfortable as a 8/8s wedge no matter how tough a beard you have. Many here will argue to no end about this. Remember that many years ago when everybody used a straight the 5/8s was considered standard and thats pretty much what most used. I'm old enough to remember going into a barber shop as a kid and they still gave straight shaves as standard practice and the barber didn't change razor sizes because some guy had a heavier beard and his 5/8s just wouldn't do the job.

I feel that everyone develops their own preferences for shaving paraphanelia of all kinds and if you like the style and handling of a big razor or a wedge then thats great but if your using a monster because you feel its the only way to get a good shave then thats wrong and your missing out on the experiences provided by other sizes and grinds. And this works both ways someone who only shaves with a 6/8s double hollow should try heavier and lighter razors or other grinds. Its what makes this hobby more interesting. I use razors of all sizes and grinds and enjoy them all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but to me, and I feel very strongly about this a properly honed 4/8s will shave you as good and comfortable as a 8/8s wedge no matter how tough a beard you have.

---

You may be in the minority, but I agree with you. My old 4/8 Neistrom shaved beautifully (I gave it to a deserving newbie, who has also gotten great shaves from it).

So what I'm hearing is that once we get used to a particular size and grind that fits us, size and grind don't really matter. I'm not sure if I'd be able to identify a 1/4, half, or full grind anyway, which wouldn't be a problem if being honed, stropped and used properly are what really matter. They may both be critical and influence a shave but once we learn how to drive it, it'll work, or not for us. Like having one car that understeers and another that oversteers... we may have a preference tho both will get us home. Thanks for this thread... I've always wondered what if anything really mattered with grind, other than a hollow is easier to sharpen than a wedge.
Regards, Zig

You can identify different grinds by looking at cross section - the closer to a triangular profile, the "wedgier" the blade.

There is no doubt that if the razor is sharp and you use proper beard prep and shaving technique, you can get a good shave from any razor - regardless of size or grind.

The purpose of my original post was to discuss the difference grind has on the feel of a razor and that newbies should try to experiment with different grinds - and not just move to bigger blades if they feel a 5/8 isn't doing it for them.

While the 5/8 full hollow became the "standard" straight razor over time - that doesn't mean its the "best" - or even better than heavier grinds - just look at modern shaving innovations such as multi-blade razors. Newer doesn't necessarily mean better and I believe that most makers offered at least a couple of widths - however, I beleve that grind choices were more limited - as is the case today. My local barber has several straights, including some of the older "meat chopers" that he refuses to part with - despite the fact that he can't use them to shave customers with due to health regulations.

I think the most important thing is that newbies should try different grinds in addition to sizes (I know my first inclination was to go to a 6/8 when I had difficulties with my 5/8). Fortunately, I purchased a 1/2 hollow (through luck) 5/8 that I immediately noticed shaved differently - which got me considering grind as well as size right off the bat.

Its also nice to have a variety of razors in several grind/size combinations - variety is the spice of life - as they say.

I also agree wth the statements above that newbies shouldn't be too quick to sell a razor that isn't doing it for them - and that it makes sense to give yourself some time to improve your straight skills and give them another try before deciding whether they're keepers or sellers.

I think I'm begining to understand. One variable is width, 4/8, 5/8 etc which relate to manuverability and ability to hold more lather between rinses. The other variable is grind which influences or determines how aggressive an edge will be on a beard because of the ridgidity of the edge imparted by the grind. I'm thinking of getting a TI razor refered to as 'singing'; not that my beard is heavy but just to see the effect of a blade with this grind ( as well as get another razor ). I have 4 razors of probably full grind 4/8, 5/8, and 6/8. In using them I'm not sure what I'm experiencing is the effect of grind or width. I can get good shaves with each if I pay attention to angle, pressure, stropping, and face prep. Thanks again for this much needed thread.
Regards,
Zig

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zig

I'm thinking of getting a TI razor refered to as 'singing'; not that my beard is heavy but just to see the effect of a blade with this grind ( as well as get another razor ).

---

Just be aware that either Classic or TI is a little too free with that label. I've got three different 'singing' TI's and none of them are anywhere near thin enough to sing. All of my truly singing blades are of different makes.

"Just be aware that either Classic or TI is a little too free with that label. I've got three different 'singing' TI's and none of them are anywhere near thin enough to sing. All of my truly singing blades are of different makes."

I am assuming that it's the grind on these that make them 'singing' and that that will influence the shave in some way. Correct? I'm not familiar with Classic or TI but read that TI makes a 'singing' one - very pronounced thinness to the blade that makes this grind preferable for heavy beards. I've seen razors in shops but they don't say what grind they are, let alone singing or not, and personell are usually not that knowledgable in the details of grind etc. Maybe by looking at 2 or 3 side by side I'd be able to tell the difference Susuki is speaking about.
Regards,
Zig

It is the grind that makes them sing, but there is a wide variation in the thinness of full hollow razors - this is partly why I disagreed with the OP's thesis.

Some of them, like my old Genco "Di Roma" was so flexible that you could see the blade flex on the hone with even the lightest pressure. Now *that* blade would sing during the shave. And I've got several other razors that aren't quite as flexible but also sing noticeably during the shave. But my "singing" TI Pierre-forged razor is a 1/2 hollow razor with a nearly imperceptible secondary grind - the only way that blade is gonna sing is if you hit it with a hammer. It's an incredible shaver, one of the best out there, but it's definitely *not* a singing blade. My egyptian palmwood is also described as a singing blade and it's probably a 3/4 hollow with a vestigial secondary grind. Of my three TI's, the only one that might be a singer is my SRP razor, it looks thin enough but I haven't shaved with it yet so I don't know for sure. But all of these razors are described by Classic as full-hollow singing blades.

Regarding the grind on a singing razor ( refered to as extra hollow grind I believe)... are they supposed to flex and follow the contours of the face thereby giving a closer shave? If they're designed for the tough beard, will a less than tough beard benifit from a singer?

... what is a vestigial secondary grind?

Are the extra hollow grinds more delicate ( fragile ) than full or half grounds? Are they more prone to damage and need honed more often?

Thanks, again
Zig

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zig

Regarding the grind on a singing razor ( refered to as extra hollow grind I believe)... are they supposed to flex and follow the contours of the face thereby giving a closer shave? If they're designed for the tough beard, will a less than tough beard benifit from a singer?

---

No, they shouldn't flex that much if you're doing it right. They aren't designed for tough beards, they are simply lighter and easier to hone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zig

... what is a vestigial secondary grind?

---

On a full hollow razor there are two grinds, the big one from spine to edge, and a secondary grind using a smaller grinding wheel that goes down the middle of the blade. On a "singer" this secondary grind will result in a paper-thin section of blade that thickens out right above the bevel - the blade winds up with a kind of upside-down coke-bottle shape. But on the two TI's I mentioned, the secondary grind doesn't result in that coke-bottle shape at all, and on my pierre-forged razor the secondary grind is only faintly defined, it's like they just wafted the wheel over the razor and called it a day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zig

Are the extra hollow grinds more delicate ( fragile ) than full or half grounds? Are they more prone to damage and need honed more often?

---

They are a bit more delicate, but no razor is particularly tough so I'm not sure it's a big deal.

Mparker has done a good job of explaining the difference between the difference between full and extra-hollow blades.

And while there are innumberable variations on these themes (for example slightly larger/heavier spines, frameback razors and blade material) and you will find similarly ground razors of similar size that shave differently, I think there are some generalizations you can make about different types of grinds - for example the whole "singing" blade thing is nothing more than a theme on the hollow grind.

As a rule, the "wedgier" the grind, the stiffer and heavier the razor - as compared to other razors of a similar width. Weight and stiffnes can improve the feel of a shave - you can lighten up on the pressure and let the razor do most of the work and the blade edge is less likely to deflect as it is backed by more metal (its not the blade that can deflect, its the edge).

However, the trade off is that the "wedgier" the blade, the more work it is to sharpen as you have to remove more metal - a full wedge has a triangular profile and the entire surface of the blade is in contact with the hone when sharpening. At the opposite extreme, in the case of the full or extra-hollow, only the spine and the edge are in contact with the hone during sharpening. This means you have to remove less metal to sharpen the edge. Mu understanding is that the secondary bevel in a hollow razor is a strengthening element that is designed to add stiffness without adding to the amount of metal in contact with the hone during sharpening.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hollow ground razors - and I did not inted to infer that - I have several hollow ground razors including a Sheffield silver 6/8 TI that is a wonderful shaver. However, my understanding is that the main benefit of the hollow grind is that it makes the razor easier to sharpen (for the manufacturer and barber, as well as the consumer) and that there is a downside to this (ligher, more flexible blades).

I am not trying to say that hollow ground razors are bad and "wedgier" razors better or that you can't get a good shave from a certain size/grind razor.

All I'm saying is that grind is as important a factor as size and that newbies should be aware of this - often newbies move up to larger razors to get more weight/stiffnes than you get in a 5/8 full hollow. The purpose of the thread was simply to encourage experimentation with different grinds as a way for new straight shavers to get the feel they wanted withouth having to move up in blade size.

All I'm saying is that grind is as important a factor as size and that newbies should be aware of this - often newbies move up to larger razors to get more weight/stiffnes than you get in a 5/8 full hollow. The purpose of the thread was simply to encourage experimentation with different grinds as a way for new straight shavers to get the feel they wanted withouth having to move up in blade size.[/quote]

,,, and that it has. I've been using a Dovo 5/8 (hollow ground I think) for 10 years now. Thanks to this group I have made a quantum leap in my strive for perfection. I have a DePew 4/8, Wade and Butcher 6/8, and Johnathan Crooke 5/8 all hollow ground I think. I get good shaves with all of them. I'm encouraged now to try a TI Super Gnome half hollow ground just to see what a difference in grind is like. Maybe next I'll try a fully hollow ground TI Evide Sonnenant Extra to see what that's like. I understand that each will give a good shave depending on sharpness, angle, and prep but I'm intrigued by the possible difference that grind can make. Thanks to all for the usual excellent input.
Regards,
Zig

I only have a 5/8 full hollow, but I suspect the following:

A 'perfect' shave depends on having a sharp razor, quality lather, beard prep and technique.

Since I always use the same razor, I know that the quality of my shave depends on the other 3 factors. I have found that variation in prep, good lather and technique can really make the difference between razor burn or a perfect shave.

Using a 7/8 or 8/8 can partially compensate for poor quality of the other factors, because it is stiffer and shapes your skin without cutting into it, I think.
but if you can really shave well, you can shave with anything. Even a sharpened spoon, provided it is HHT sharp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

Using a 7/8 or 8/8 can partially compensate for poor quality of the other factors, because it is stiffer and shapes your skin without cutting into it, I think.

---

Not that I've ever noticed. I think all other factors being equal, the larger razors have the following differences from the smaller sizes

(a) look cooler - because waving a *small* knife around your throat just isn't tough enuff.
(b) are slightly easier to hone - very useful when starting out
(c) hold more lather - slightly faster shave
(d) more mass=more momentum - less likely to stall out if it hits a tough patch it isn't quite sharp enough to handle
(e) larger polar moment of inertia - more stability. feels "stiffer" than it really is
(f) larger shank - better grip and more control.

Most of these are advantages when you're just starting out, but matter less with more experience. IMO after awhile the heavier razors start feeling a bit "numb" because there are so many factors dampening out the feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zig

"Just be aware that either Classic or TI is a little too free with that label. I've got three different 'singing' TI's and none of them are anywhere near thin enough to sing. All of my truly singing blades are of different makes."

---

Take a look at the way TI workers strop their razors in the factory and you'll understand why they sing! Video is on: http://www.shaving-and-razor-shop.co...ers-Issard.htm

I am not sure whether this page is also in English, just press the word "filmpje" which is below the picture of someone behind a grinding machine.
Also interesting to see how the razor is honed. I have been told by the owner of Ardennes Coticule that that is also the way razors are honed in the area of the quarry. he even showed me an interesting old hone that had W shaped wear due to the fact that the one side of the blade is honed on one half of the hone and the other side of the blade on the other side of the hone in a similar way they do the stropping in the video!