Stropping Sharpness vs. Honemeister Sharpness

Dear Fellow Razorheads-Have watched numerous videos by Lynn, Sham and others, bought a Norton Whetstone set, a Naniwa 12K, a Chromium Oxide prepped strop , a Big Daddy Strop and several other razor mnt. items, I have run into a quandary. Been shaving straight for about 4 mos now, with about 1 year safety razor "Shavette" experience. With that in mind, I have a few questions.
Does a newbie shaver ever return to the honemeister sharpness, or does stropping just maintain the edge at a lower grade of sharpness? I noticed that two of my razors no longer grip the thumbnail, although they do passibly shave with several passes. Both were sent off around 2 mos ago. Both have been stropped regularly.
If the blade fails the nail test and 100 strops doesn't improve things, should the shaver go back to 12K? I've tried 20 passes on the Chromium Oxide treated strop to no avail.
Does anybody have any input on pre-shave oil? I have a 2 oz bottle coming and thought that it might help with the problem areas around the mouth.
I now fully understand why safety razors from Gillette were greeted with such enthusiasm!
Doubly frustrating for me, as I perform mnt for a living, restored over 100 tube radios while laid off, motorized a bike after 4 foot ops and consider myself very handy. Helped restore and own a 1963 Falcon and restored around half of my gun collection (Several of my guns are close to 100 years old!). Thanx for ANY feedback-Gearhead
Thanx for any input, as I cannot continue to send blades away at $20.00/pop!-Gearhead

The "nail test" is usually only done while honing and then a bit more work is given to the bevel. If you're using it as a sharpness test before shaving then you've probably dulled your edge.

Thanx for the quick feedback! So the only shave test is arm hair or HHT?-Gearhead

Stropping before each shave will help maintain the blade's original sharpness but only if your stropping technique is good and even then not forever. I don't use any tests but just go by when I think a razor does not shave as well as it should. At that point I will try a few laps on a pasted balsa stop and do a shave. If that doesn't work it goes back to a finisher like the Nani 12K. If it still doesn't shave well enough I go back one step in the honing progression and so on till it does shave up to snuff. That is just how I do it and everyone has a different maintenance routine.

There are quite a few different techniques that have to be learned and refined when shaving with a straight that go into making up a good shave. How well you can hone, strop, lather and actually use a straight. Any one or combination of them done sub par can lead to a poor shave and an edge not keeping it's sharpness long. It is a bit complicated and frustrating to sort it all out. You are right too that it is one of the reasons safety razors were so well accepted.

I have been at this coming up on the 1 year mark and just fairly recently have all the bits started to really come together. I still have enough failures too, just call me a slow learner. I don't know if that helps any but just saying it takes time to get good at the many different aspects of maintaining an edge.

Bob

I'm much less enthusiastic about non-shaving sharpness tests after having tried them all with a fresh double-edge razor blade, where they all show that the edge is impossibly dull.

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Originally Posted by gearhead222

So the only shave test is ....

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The only shave test is actually shaving with it! If you like it, fine. If not, you gotta do some sharpening work.
And I'm not trying to play the smart-ass here. Really, at the end of the day, the quality of the shave is all that counts.

Thanx again guys! I actually have the shaving bit down-it's the mnt. that's killing me! Bob-you are so correct-a quality straight shave is a whole lot of bits coming together. BlueDun, you are correct about the shave being the judge.Mdarnton,I cannot argue with your logic, although safety razors are a breeze by comparison.
Just have to keep slugging along, I guess. Thanx again all. Great forum:)-Gearhead

I'm with bobh on what he said about backing up by steps. I just honed my 48 rolls because I saw a small curl on the edge. I only went back to the naniwa 12k. That was all it took to remove the curl. It did however take a couple of shaves and stropping to restore smoothness to the shave. This seems to be pretty normal. Someday I would like to experience a Lynn quality hone. And compare the just honed edge to what I am doing. Sigh, if I could only talk myself into parting with any of my razors for a couple of weeks.

Dave

20 strokes on Crox is too much to ever do at one time. Ofc, you knew I was going to say that. :p

And to back up what others have said. Don't use the thumbnail test on a shave ready razor. You more than likely ruined the edge you had. That's a 1000 grit bevel check type of test. Not a super fine 12k grit shaving test.

A razor, properly stropped, should last a minimum of 3 months of daily shaving before it needs ANY sort of stone work or Crox. And even then it should only need maybe ten or less on a 12k to come back to a perfect shave for you. I know you like that Crox, which is why I told you earlier that you could use it at a maximum of once per week, IF YOU MUST. But it's not a maintenance tool. I regard it as a ONE TIME ONLY, icing on the cake type of thing. I don't suggest it for maintenance. Others do. But it's not giving you what you want, so maybe try something different. Like..not using it, or using it like I suggested. 5-10 strokes max. Now ofc, keep in mind that it's too late for the two razors you are now talking about. They probably need stone work. Try 10 at 8k and 8 at 12k, then strop on linen and leather(forego the crox). Then shave it. See what happens. Better? Worse? The same? 40 at 4k, 10 at 8k, 8 at 12k, strop linen, leather, shave. Put the crox away for awhile and see what happens without it. Make it's use mean something to you. If the razor holds it's edge longer without, well, that tells you something. It doesn't seem to be helping you to use it, so try NOT using it, and see how that goes. Just some things to consider.



Good luck!

Dear Regular Joe and GotLead-Thank you for the excellent feedback! Shaved today with my Hamburg Ring and realized that it was too dull to shave with. Switched to my Cowboy and got a good shave! Going to take the Hamburg Ring to the 12K and see what happens. Was not going to use electrical tape with such few passes. Will keep you all updated:)-Gearhead

Dear Razorheads-Whipped out the Norton 4K/8K , Naniwa 12 K and DMC D8T-Thankfully,my Cowboy and Dovo are still shaving hair, but the Hamburg Ring and Golden Monkey needed major work! Won't bore you all with the details, but took both down to 4K, then 8 and 12K, followed by 20 on the felt and 60-80 on the Bridle leather. Able to shave hair again, but running out of body hair:( Learned two important lessons-NO thumbnail test and lighten up on the strop. Before I forget, can you clean up the Naniwa 12K using the DMT D8C? I noticed that it was getting discolored due to metal shavings. Didn't use tape either, as it seems to leave residue on the stones. I realize that this is a volatile topic though-Gearhead

Careful stropping on canvas and leather can *increase* the sharpness of a razor. With practice, grinding with a stone or abrasive polish can become something done only once a year (or two years, or three...).

Seems like a lot of people are forgetting to read the fine print of the TNT. "Use for bevel setting". I know how you feel as there were times when I started I wanted use the test to see if I had dents. Make sure you use the TPT and shave test. It will save you some honing.

Ah, the old "Stropmeister" vs. "Honemeister" thread, eh?

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Originally Posted by gearhead222

Dear Razorheads-Whipped out the Norton 4K/8K , Naniwa 12 K and DMC D8T-Thankfully,my Cowboy and Dovo are still shaving hair, but the Hamburg Ring and Golden Monkey needed major work! Won't bore you all with the details, but took both down to 4K, then 8 and 12K, followed by 20 on the felt and 60-80 on the Bridle leather. Able to shave hair again, but running out of body hair:( Learned two important lessons-NO thumbnail test and lighten up on the strop. Before I forget, can you clean up the Naniwa 12K using the DMT D8C? I noticed that it was getting discolored due to metal shavings. Didn't use tape either, as it seems to leave residue on the stones. I realize that this is a volatile topic though-Gearhead

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Yes, the DMT D8C would be excellent at flattening/cleaning the Naniwa 12K. Most honers out there use it for exactly that.

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Originally Posted by gearhead222

Dear Razorheads-Whipped out the Norton 4K/8K , Naniwa 12 K and DMC D8T-Thankfully,my Cowboy and Dovo are still shaving hair, but the Hamburg Ring and Golden Monkey needed major work! Won't bore you all with the details, but took both down to 4K, then 8 and 12K, followed by 20 on the felt and 60-80 on the Bridle leather. Able to shave hair again, but running out of body hair:( Learned two important lessons-NO thumbnail test and lighten up on the strop. Before I forget, can you clean up the Naniwa 12K using the DMT D8C? I noticed that it was getting discolored due to metal shavings. Didn't use tape either, as it seems to leave residue on the stones. I realize that this is a volatile topic though-Gearhead

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Reading your original post I just have to say congrats on the '63 falcon. I've had a few of those years ago, various years, and they were great cars. Back to the topic, have you gone to the SRP library and read any of the honing tutorials ? Watch some of Lynn's latest videos and gssixgun has quite a few. I cut my honing teeth with the pyramid method and I think that is a good way to start for a beginning honer. YMMV. The general rule of thumb is that incomplete bevel setting leads to problems in getting adequate sharpness/finishing later in the process.

Using tape is a controversial topic as you've pointed out. I think it is a good idea at least in the learning stages of honing razors. IMHO, if you are leaving a lot of tape residue on your hones you are using too much pressure. At least that is in my experience. Honing razors is a different kettle on fish than knives or tools in terms of pressure. With razors less is more. Keep at it and you'll eventually be achieving the goal.

Stropping should maintain the blade.

You shouldn't have a sudden decrease in shaving performance.

If a razor dulls from use then it's pretty easy to bring it back on a high grit hone. Once a razor edge has some damage from the strop or the hone then it can take a little more work.

My guess is that since they are totally dull, they need a full honing.

A more experienced member might be able to look at one of your razors and give you an idea of what's going on.

I'd be happy to do that, and hone one of your razors free if you want.

Michael

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Originally Posted by suits123

Seems like a lot of people are forgetting to read the fine print of the TNT. "Use for bevel setting". I know how you feel as there were times when I started I wanted use the test to see if I had dents. Make sure you use the TPT and shave test. It will save you some honing.

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Thats a questionable statement! If you read many old barbers manual they clearly show to test the razors using the TNT. I understand many here claims that it does in fact damage the edge but im not convince that the old timers were wrong to teach this after all. Also nails and hairs are made of the same material? something to think about?
Attachment 121671

Martin, you make a good point. I'll do a TNT prior to my shave today, and measure the result, before I suggest it as a cause of dulling again.

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Originally Posted by Martin103

Thats a questionable statement! If you read many old barbers manual they clearly show to test the razors using the TNT. I understand many here claims that it does in fact damage the edge but im not convince that the old timers were wrong to teach this after all. Also nails and hairs are made of the same material? something to think about?
Attachment 121671

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Hmmmm That isn't what that text says,,, It agrees exactly with what we say now...

"It is necessary to test the edge frequently while you hone"


The only real difference is that the Barber's Manual doesn't really differentiate as much as we do between Bevel, Sharpen, Polish, Finish..

It isn't right or wrong it is semantics, but I can tell you without any doubt what so ever that a TNT does dull the fine edge, do your own tests and see, but make sure you calibrate your tests first...

Try it on a DE blade too

Great responses all! Thank you! Took your advice already Birnando, concerning the Naniwa 12K and the D8C! Am wondering if I can take the D8C to the Regal Barers hone and improve its perfromance. JimmyHad, yes, the Falcon was a bugger to restore, as Ford sold the 1960-'63 tooling to Argentina, as they were getting ready to share Falcon tooling with the 1964 1/2 Mustang. MJsorkin, thank you for the offer-I may take you up on that! Martin103, thanx for the vintage text!. Lynn, thanx again as always:)-Gearhead

gearhead222 wrote:
"Does a newbie shaver ever return to the honemeister sharpness, or does stropping just maintain the edge at a lower grade of

sharpness?"

Martin130 wrote:
"If you read many old barbers manual they clearly show to test the razors using the TNT"

gssixgun wrote:
"Hmmmm That isn't what that text says,,, It agrees exactly with what we say now..."

"It isn't right or wrong it is semantics, but I can tell you without any doubt what so ever that a TNT does dull the fine

edge, do your own tests and see, but make sure you calibrate your tests first..."

~~~

If it's ok with you guys, can we discuss this a little further? I have found this to be a very interesting thread!

I asserted that one can maintain a razor for a long time with a set of canvas and leather strops. Are "honemeister" quality edges are those that are taken to a level of sharpness that are just a shade below which if honed any further would be over-honed? One that, as suggested by gearhead222, can't be maintained at that level of keenness for long by stropping alone. Since I find that a gentle wetted thumbnail test doesn't seem to harm a shave-ready razor, I'm thinking that I probably don't shave with a honemister-quality edge.

Does that sound right, or am I way off the mark?

Thanks,
Jeff

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Originally Posted by JeffR

Since I find that a gentle wetted thumbnail test doesn't seem to harm a shave-ready razor, I'm thinking that I probably don't shave with a honemister-quality edge.

Does that sound right, or am I way off the mark?

Thanks,
Jeff

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No way of actually knowing, from what I have read of your posts I would guess that you might be right.. We have proved that a 1k edge will shave, and by using a TNT off a 1k it will "Smooth" the edge, then you are stropping it up, so it is very possible that you are shaving closer to a .50 micron edge, where the sharpest edges border closer to .38 microns (Not my Numbers).. So your hypothesis might very well be correct,, Keep in mind the term Honemiester Edge is being thrown around quite a bit, it is really any edge, there isn't a sharpness level of a Honemiester edge, that is BS :p The actual micron level of the edge is determined by the Steel, the Geometry, the Hone, and finally the Stropping...

There are just to many variables that stack up to decide where that edge will end up, as the saying goes "This isn't rocket science" :D

Dear Fellow Razorheads-FWIW, I just use the term "Honemeister Edge" since that is a term that all of us can indentify with. BOTH of my problem razors had to go back to 4K to get a shaveable edge-what I mean by that is being able to shave body hair going with the grain of the hair and pressing VERY little on the razor. If I have to press down or go against the grain of the hair to shave it, then the razor is not shave ready to me. My .02 worth-Gearhead

I have heard other guys that proscribe to your theory Jeff, that a slightly lower edge is easier to maintain, many guys that use Barber's hones believe that wholeheartedly..
Some of the Coticule guys also proscribe to that theory too, they believe a Coticule is self limiting for sharpness, Eschers have a small following with that also..

Slightly off topic, but am still wondering if I can refresh my like new Regal Barbers hone using a D8C 320 grit stone. It looks like new, but doesn't hone a razor, although it has a fine and coarse side.-Gearhead

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Originally Posted by gearhead222

Slightly off topic, but am still wondering if I can refresh my like new Regal Barbers hone using a D8C 320 grit stone. It looks like new, but doesn't hone a razor, although it has a fine and coarse side.-Gearhead

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Pic ???

You want to be selective with "Refreshing" BH's many of them were "polished" from the factory and you don't want to lose that if it still has it, general rule is don't unless they are really glazed or they are damaged

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Originally Posted by gearhead222

Slightly off topic, but am still wondering if I can refresh my like new Regal Barbers hone using a D8C 320 grit stone. It looks like new, but doesn't hone a razor, although it has a fine and coarse side.-Gearhead

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If it's of any interest to you, a barber once told me that in barber school he was taught to use a bar of Lava soap to clean and refresh a hone. Kind of an old school way to do the job. Lava soap is composed with powdered pumice, if you didn't know already.

Anyway, another 2 cents. Are we up to a buck yet??

Thanx guys! This hone looks like it was never used, but it does not sharpen a razor:(Wonder if there's just dirt and crud in it. Maybe shaving soap and a hand brush? Open to all suggestions. Haven't made a quarter yet;)-Gearhead

Dear Honeright-Using one of my shaving brushes to apply the shaving soap, I used a stiff bristle hand brush to clean the Regal Barbers hone. Think that it had a lot of dirt in it, as BOTH sides feel coarser now. Will try one of my less expensive straights on her and see what happens:)-Gearhead