A Wade and Butcher not in the data base

Hey guys, I picked up this little gem, and am going to have it restored. There is a wee bit of rust around the handle/pivot, but the blade its self is in great shape. Only grey patina. It also looks as if it hardly ever seen a hone!

I found the data base, but this one isn't listed. Any help or history would be appreciated.

Bear

Attachment 124820Attachment 124821

On the blade face it says "Diamond Edge Razor" Above that on the spine it says "CELEBRATED FINE INDIA...) the next line on the spine says (steel...) the rest of the stamp is missing.

Tang stamp says
"MANUFACTURED BY"
"WADE & BUTCHER"
"SHEFFIELD"

Diamond edge... man, you gonna have a hard time honing that one!

Those are not uncommon. I've seen a few. Not as common as some but I wouldn't call it 'rare'. Great blade though and nice condition. Probably 1850s 'to '80s. No country of origin stamped so pre 1891 and the etching started around 1830 IIRC. My supposition on the dating is just that ..... a supposition. Nice find in that condition.

Now the next question, whan a razor is called a 6/8, 7/8... 9/8 ( pick a size) is it the blade height they refer to or the sharpening size? This one measures 7/8 but would sharpen (if you calculate bevel angle) as a 5/8, because the contact point would be on the shoulder ridge. What is the correct way to explain blade height?

Also, any idea what the rest of the stamp would have said?

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Originally Posted by PierreR

Now the next question, whan a razor is called a 6/8, 7/8... 9/8 ( pick a size) is it the blade height they refer to or the sharpening size? This one measures 7/8 but would sharpen (if you calculate bevel angle) as a 5/8. What is the correct way to explain blade height?

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Some manufacturers of modern razors measure from the top of the spine to the bottom of the cutting edge, others measure from the honing flat just beneath the top of the spine to the bottom of the cutting edge. So you might buy a razor advertised by the manufacturer as a 6/8 and find measuring from the top of the spine it is 7/8. The thickness of the spine would ideally lead to a 17 degree angle IIRC, give or take a couple of degrees. There are long threads on that topic and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong ...... I was wrong once before.

As I was told by Heribert Wacker himself.The german way to measure a blade is the center of the spine to blade edge.
He said the american way is wrong (top of spine to edge).

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

As I was told by Heribert Wacker himself.The german way to measure a blade is the center of the spine to blade edge.
He said the american way is wrong (top of spine to edge).

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How do you find the center?
I've never got my head around how to measure this...

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Originally Posted by Lemur

How do you find the center?
I've never got my head around how to measure this...

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I think by 'center' where the top of the 'honing flat' begins ....... but I could be (shudder) wrong ........ :ziplip:

Your not wrong Jim,Never have been:) where the spine sits on the stone,really makes not a hill of beans unless you sell blades on the bay and such,you can pick up an 1/8 the american way,right or wrong:)

So, on a brand new razor it would be from the edge to where it contacts the hone, on a razor with some hone wear you have to guesstimate where that would be.
But if the edge is not parallel to the back, what then?

I love diamond edges. Nice razor. Not rare as jimmy said but a great razor none the less. Diamond edges originally had a frosted etch from about 1/8 below the diamond edge writing on the belly of the blade all the way down to the cutting edge. If you are getting it restored it would be nice to see that feature present rather than it being buffed away to a mirror blob IMO... Of course YMMV.

Joe, would you happen to have a photo of one in decent condition? In its current shape, I can make out the line fairly easily on both sides. How would a guy restore that feature?

Also, can you tell me what the rest of the stamp on the tang used to say?

wonderful looking razor !!

on a side note i like to measure the blade my way that way im assured im right !!! . ;)

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Originally Posted by PierreR

Also, any idea what the rest of the stamp would have said?

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Probably like this one!
Attachment 124849

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Originally Posted by JoeLowett

Diamond edges originally had a frosted etch from about 1/8 below the diamond edge writing on the belly of the blade all the way down to the cutting edge. If you are getting it restored it would be nice to see that feature present rather than it being buffed away to a mirror blob IMO... Of course YMMV.

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I surely agree about the mirror finish on these old blades, interesting about the frosted etching, i found one example, wondering is there was writing on that as well.
Attachment 124850

The profile between this photo and the one I have is a tad different, and the type size on yours is larger, and looks deeper. Wonder how many years between these examples...

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Originally Posted by Martin103

I surely agree about the mirror finish on these old blades, interesting about the frosted etching, i found one example, wondering is there was writing on that as well.
Attachment 124850

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In your opinion, what would you think to be the best way to restore the frosting? a difference in finish? say a satin 800 grit finish, and mirror/near mirror the spine? A bead blasting might be another option, but how would you mask the rest of the blade and tang?

Martin, your second image has a different spine stamp, and its profile more closely matches the one I have.

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Originally Posted by PierreR

Joe, would you happen to have a photo of one in decent condition? In its current shape, I can make out the line fairly easily on both sides. How would a guy restore that feature?

Also, can you tell me what the rest of the stamp on the tang used to say?

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I will look for a pic I'm sure I can find something. Acid etching would do the trick. One one these have been on my to do list for a long time.

Edit: I found pics but I have to wait until I get home to upload them. It won't let me do it from my phone

Edit to the edit: pics I found were already posted above. You can read up on acid etching. You can tape the line to match the pics, apply a masking agent to the part you want to remain shiney remove the tape and acid etch or sand etch the in masked portion. I think it will be awesome

Ferric Chloride will at first turn the steel quite dark, even after buffing, it may not be even, or bright? I wonder if a different acid will give better results? I have sulfuric acid, and muriatic acid. Nitric acid will leave it jet black...

What do you think?

Dang it! I bought a W&B off Ebay I thought was a 9/8. Now it turns out it's only a 4/8. Dang! It still feels pretty big though.

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Originally Posted by PierreR

Ferric Chloride will at first turn the steel quite dark, even after buffing, it may not be even, or bright? I wonder if a different acid will give better results? I have sulfuric acid, and muriatic acid. Nitric acid will leave it jet black...

What do you think?

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The only acid etching method I have tried was the Charlie Lewis hot white vinegar method. Works nicely and gives an 'organic' satin finish. I would say pressure glass etching kit you can get at any crafts store may work too...... But I've never tried it.. If your going to try that be mindful of your edge

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Originally Posted by Lemur

So, on a brand new razor it would be from the edge to where it contacts the hone, on a razor with some hone wear you have to guesstimate where that would be.
But if the edge is not parallel to the back, what then?

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I always measure from the top of the spine to the bottom of the cutting edge no matter who made the razor. Some companies, like TI IIRC, measure from where the honing flat begins about center of the side of the spine. This adds about an 1/8 to the overall measurement IME. Like I say, that is just the way some companies choose to do it. I think most end users go by the top to the bottom method ...... but I could be wrong .... ;)

I thought I was wrong once in grade 6, but it turned out I was wrong!

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Originally Posted by PierreR

Ferric Chloride will at first turn the steel quite dark, even after buffing, it may not be even, or bright? I wonder if a different acid will give better results? I have sulfuric acid, and muriatic acid. Nitric acid will leave it jet black...

What do you think?

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Cut the ferric with water,experiment with it,the weaker the solution and exposure time, the lighter the color.

Cut with water for sure, my concern is that it will end up a dull dirty grey. Or a weak uneven etch.

How would they have done it a hundred and fifty years ago? The frosting line is beautifully crisp.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Some manufacturers of modern razors measure from the top of the spine to the bottom of the cutting edge, others measure from the honing flat just beneath the top of the spine to the bottom of the cutting edge. So you might buy a razor advertised by the manufacturer as a 6/8 and find measuring from the top of the spine it is 7/8. The thickness of the spine would ideally lead to a 17 degree angle IIRC, give or take a couple of degrees. There are long threads on that topic and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong ...... I was wrong once before.

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Jimmy - I'm sure if you look back on things you will remember that you only thought you were wrong, but it turned out you were wrong about that and right in the first place!

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

As I was told by Heribert Wacker himself.The german way to measure a blade is the center of the spine to blade edge.
He said the american way is wrong (top of spine to edge).

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Pixelfixed - my mother told me it was wrong to go with certain girls, but she was wrong about that. What is right or what is wrong is a matter of debate sometimes... :)

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by JoeLowett

I will look for a pic I'm sure I can find something. Acid etching would do the trick. One one these have been on my to do list for a long time.

Edit: I found pics but I have to wait until I get home to upload them. It won't let me do it from my phone

Edit to the edit: pics I found were already posted above. You can read up on acid etching. You can tape the line to match the pics, apply a masking agent to the part you want to remain shiney remove the tape and acid etch or sand etch the in masked portion. I think it will be awesome

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I would use a cheap airbrush sandblaster with a fine grit like regular baking soda granules. Tape the surround carefully with two layers of 3M #33 and trim the space to be frosted with a Xacto knife taking care not to scratch the blade of the razor. Try at about 50 PSI and you should be home free.I have found that the airbrush sand blaster is a neat tool to use outside or in a cabinet. Still wear a good respirator.
~Richard

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Originally Posted by ace

Dang it! I bought a W&B off Ebay I thought was a 9/8. Now it turns out it's only a 4/8. Dang! It still feels pretty big though.

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Okay... here it goes.... I've always wanted to say this but never felt it to be appropriate until now...
That's what she said! :beer1: :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Jimmy - I'm sure if you look back on things you will remember that you only thought you were wrong, but it turned out you were wrong about that and right in the first place!

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Remember Tony Montana in "Scarface" ....... he said, "Even when I lie I tell the truth." ....... Kinda like that ....... :p

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Originally Posted by Geezer

I would use a cheap airbrush sandblaster with a fine grit like regular baking soda granules. Tape the surround carefully with two layers of 3M #33 and trim the space to be frosted with a Xacto knife taking care not to scratch the blade of the razor. Try at about 50 PSI and you should be home free.I have found that the airbrush sand blaster is a neat tool to use outside or in a cabinet. Still wear a good respirator.
~Richard

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+1 on this geezer. i like that idea.. Acid etching can possible give a dull look where as the soda blaster would give a frosted look and frosted is what you want for sure!

Regular baking soda eh? Great, now I got to buy a sand blaster... I agree, that would likely give better results than an acid bath/etch.

Hello,
I 've the same blade and after the restore is one of my favorites.
I'd like to complete my work adding the orginal frost finish, I was thinking about electro-etchin but now I'm wondering if you tried with soda blaster method

regards


here's mine

Attachment 148728

I've been doing experiments with re-etching old razors. Here's an example:

Attachment 148749

I used circuit board etching solution (which is, as I understand it, ferric chloride), electrical tape, and standard acrylic craft paint.

What I learned is that the tape makes a pretty good barrier to the acid, but the paint was much better. I'd suggest using tape to mark the boundary and making the resist with standard acrylic craft paint.

Also, make sure the blade has as close to a mirror polish as you can get before you etch it. The smoothness of the surface is important for getting a really sharp line.

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Originally Posted by Haza

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mycarver did it beautifully, I wouldn't ask him how he did it(you'll understand why if you read the thread) but maybe you could get him to do it for you, just throwing it out there.

thread:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/custo...rost-line.html

many thanks Baxxer. I didn't see the post, very interesting, almost a case of telepaty ;)

many thanks you too Voidmonster, did you try with water and common salt? another choice could be water and FeSO4 (don't remember the english name)
I made my etching machine from an old transformer with 12V and 3Amp in output it works pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Haza

many thanks Baxxer. I didn't see the post, very interesting, almost a case of telepaty ;)

many thanks you too Voidmonster, did you try with water and common salt? another choice could be water and FeSO4 (don't remember the english name)
I made my etching machine from an old transformer with 12V and 3Amp in output it works pretty well.

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I have tried the electrochemical etching method, but I find it's more of a pain in the butt than it's worth, really. It would probably be great with reusable vinyl resists, but with paint or standard resist pen, the salt water solution being pushed around on the surface tended to break up the resist.

IMO, it's easier to get a deep, clean etch with a ferric chloride solution.