Two Rodgers razors, are they "Joseph Rodgers & Sons" though?

Hi, I have two razors, one an antique store find, the other an Ebay score, that I am wondering if they are Joseph Rodgers razors as in "Joseph Rodgers & Sons, Cutlers to Their Majesties, No. 6 Norfolk Street, Sheffield" fame.

First up is one that I assume must be a Joseph Rodgers razor but perhaps an earlier one before the company started using their well known stamping. As you can see it says "Joseph Rodgers" but does not have the "& Sons" bit. Also it says "Shemeld & Co." What is this? Did Joseph Rodgers work for this firm before starting his own? The razor is also stamped "Sheffield" and below that "1829". Perhaps this is the manufacture year?

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I like the worked spine, the jimping underneath the tang, and the little notch between the blade and tang. Btw, is there a name for that sort of notch? I've seen it on some other vintage razors but don't know what it would be called. The razor is etched with a "2" and some flowery details on the spine. I assume it was once a part of a weekend set. The scales do appear to be authentic ivory. The razor will soon go out for a professional cleaning.

The second razor is stamped "Rodgers & Son", no "Joseph" and note that it is the singular "Son" and not plural "Sons". It says "Manufacturers" and "Sheffield". I have thought that either this is a Joseph Rodgers razor from when he first started his own firm, or else perhaps it is a knockoff, someone trying to use their shared last name of "Rodgers" but not related to the Joseph Rodgers to mislead buyers.

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It is a heavy near wedge with a 7/8 inch blade width. It is quite faint but the blade does have a nice etching that says "Silver Steel" with some scrollwork around it.

Can anyone confirm or deny that these razors are manufactured by the well known Sheffield firm Joseph Rodgers & Sons? Thank you for your time and responses!

There were rather a lot of cutlers called Rodgers in Sheffield, some of who tried to trade of Joseph Rodgers & Sons repute and goodwill.

Thomas Shemeld & Son started business in 1879, located at Prince Street, Moor. By 1884 there was a change of name - to Joseph Rodgers, Shemeld & Co. '1829' and the word 'Rocket' were their trademarks. By 1901 it had changed name again - back to Shemeld & Co. and was located at the Livingstone Razor Works. The last change of name was to T Shemeld & Sons, up to 1920 when they ceased operation.

Apart from C. W. Roberts, George Rodgers, Geo Rodgers & Co, William Rodgers, Henry Rodgers Sons & Co and James Rodgers, there was also a John Rodgers & Sons, dating from before 1840. However, they were table knife makers. In a famous case, the firm of Nowill (of KrossKeys razor fame) were taken to court by the real Joseph Rodgers & Sons. Nowill's had encouraged (and obviously profited by) John Rodgers & Sons to style themselves as 'J Rodgers & Sons' and to controversially adopt the 'V Crown R' cypher of Joseph Rodgers & Sons. Although the case cost Joseph Rodgers & Sons £2000 (an enormous amount in the 1840s), they were able to obtain a court order to stop John Rodgers & sons using the offending trademark. In spite of this, the firm of John Rodgers & Sons was up and running again by 1853 - Joseph Rodgers & Sons again sought justice in the courts, but the ruling went against them. In 1861 one of the sons - Joseph - took over John Rodgers & Sons and re-named it Joseph Rodgers & Co.

Joseph Rodgers & Co pretends to hail back to 1800 (most Sheffield firms had a habit of pre-dating themselves!) but that was probably the year that their corporate mark - '3436' - was first granted. Although started in 1861 there is an advert in one of the Sheffield Directories (1871) that noted that Joseph Rodgers & Co, successor to John Rodgers & Sons, was situated in Norfolk Street. I expect that added insult to injury! By 1879 they had relocated to the Rio Works, and soon after they went bankrupt (1907) Joseph Rodgers & sons bought up their name to prevent others using it.

Interestingly, the person who started Joseph Rodgers & Sons was himself called John Rodgers - his son was called Joseph. He obtained the famous Star and Maltese Cross corporate marks in 1724. When John Rodgers died the business was at Sycamore Street, but it soon moved to No 6 Norfolk Street - the iconic address we associate with this company. Joseph Rodgers (d1821) himself had four sons.

Then there was another Joseph Rodgers & Sons - c1860 - but this firm seemed to be solely occupied with making scissors and spring knives.

Add to that R Rodgers and Son (note the singular Son). This firm arose out of C W Rodgers (1860) and the 'R' stands for Rhoda, wife of C W Rodgers. The son was called Joseph and to further muddy the waters, they called their works the Norfolk Works - to trade of the reputation of Joseph Rodgers & Son, no doubt. Joseph Rodgers & sons again sought relief from the Courts (1870) but lost the case. The corporate mark was a crossed Pick and Shovel, acquired by Joseph Rodgers & Sons sometime after the firm of R Rodgers & Son ceased to trade (1904).

We aren't quite out of the woods yet, though! There was also Richard Rodgers and Son (another singular Son) dating to around 1841 and ceasing to exist around 1872.

There was also another Joseph Rodgers, allegedly around the corner from Joseph Rodgers & sons works, but this company is shrouded in mystery, some claiming it to be run by the real Joseph Rodgers & Sons, but due to lack of verifiable information we shall draw a veil over this one1

In light of the above, I hesitate to ascribe either of your razors to the bona-fide Joseph Rodgers & Sons - no star and cross corporate marks, no No 6 Norfolk Street, no 'Cutllers to His/Her/Their Majesties and no clear marking of J Rodgers & Sons. However, they both look like fine razors.

Regards,
Neil

Wow! Incredible post, thanks so much for posting all of that information. I never really thought that the "Rodgers & Son" razor was really a "Joseph Rodgers & Sons" but I still very much like it for the "Silver Steel" etching and it is a heavy Sheffield wedge. The "Joseph Rodgers" I had thought perhaps it was authentic but I guess I was hoodwinked just like the Shemeld Co. hoped to do. I still do like it for the spinework and ivory scales and will definitely get it cleaned up. I do not want to leave that rust and corrosion on the blade. Thanks again for your very long reply, it was just the information I was hoping to get!

Hi you might also be intersted to know I have a picture of the Shemeld Razor works from 1897 the four in the middle are from left to right, Joseph (Son), Maurice (Son), Thomas (Father) and Thomas William (Son). I'm not sure who the two either side are but I suspect they are Grandsons.

The sign over the top reads:

LIVINGSONE RAZOR WORKS

SHEMELD & Co
RAZOR MAKERS & CUTLERS
SPECIALITIES IN CARVERS

and CHILDREN'S CUTLERY.

Trade Marks: "1829" & "ROCKET"

Behind Thomas Shemeld Senior it appears to read (Partially obscured):

Shemeld & Co
Maurice & Co
"ROCKET"

Sheffield

TWS was my Great Grandfather.
I have also found out the younger son was called Joseph Rodgers Shemeld. As far as I can tell there is no link to the, then famous Joseph Rodgers razor works. As stated in the post above it looks like he was have been named with an eye on legitimising using the Joseph Rodgers name. So your razor above above bears his name. The date "1829" is listed as a trade mark on the notice in front of the works, perhaps the year it was founded??? Joseph R Shemeld is the younger son, second from the left on the photo.Attachment 128660

I found a couple of these at an antique shop. I didn't snap any photos, but I didn't see any hone wear and the celluloid scales all looked ok. The sticker price said $180. I haven't seen many of these around, so I can't compare prices with anything.

How do these razors compare to other ones like Heljestrands, Bokers, W&B, etc regarding their value and quality?

I remember seeing a cross and star. Is there anything else I should look for to make sure it's a legit razor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AustinCQC

I found a couple of these at an antique shop. I didn't snap any photos, but I didn't see any hone wear and the celluloid scales all looked ok. The sticker price said $180. I haven't seen many of these around, so I can't compare prices with anything.

How do these razors compare to other ones like Heljestrands, Bokers, W&B, etc regarding their value and quality?

I remember seeing a cross and star. Is there anything else I should look for to make sure it's a legit razor?

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Value is relative for antiques.

Their value to me is how useful they are as tools, and here's the thing: even 'knockoffs' made during the heyday of Sheffield production are fine tools. After about 1900, the quality starts dropping off for non-name brands (and even the big guys saw reduction), but razors made before the telling ENGLAND stamp are likely to all be at least good, sometimes amazing.

One of my very best-shaving razors appears to have been made for a conman (T. Ascher), but the evidence trail is so convoluted it's impossible to know who made it. I have razors with no identifiable maker's mark that are wonderful to use.

On the other hand, if you're interested in the cachet of the name, then you're definitely looking for (in the case of Rodgers) razors stamped with a star and cross, and it will have an address on the tang:

Joseph Rodgers & Sons (the plural part is important to identifying it correctly, watch for it)
Cutlers to Their Majesties (which can also sometimes be His Majesty or Her Majesty)
No. 6 Norfolk Street
(sometimes it will say Sheffield below the address, but not always).

Not interested in it for the name, but if he is pricing them at $180 each for knockoffs, I would rather wait for a good deal on a Helj and another Boker.

Quality is more important to me. Good tempering from a well known maker vs poor quality means comfortable shaves for months instead of weeks before taking the razor to a hone again.

I'm fighting off RAD right now, but I'm afraid I'm losing the battle... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AustinCQC

Not interested in it for the name, but if he is pricing them at $180 each for knockoffs, I would rather wait for a good deal on a Helj and another Boker.

Quality is more important to me. Good tempering from a well known maker vs poor quality means comfortable shaves for months instead of weeks before taking the razor to a hone again.

I'm fighting off RAD right now, but I'm afraid I'm losing the battle... :)

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When you're talking about older Sheffield razors, the knockoffs were made by the same workers with the same steel and sometimes even for the same bosses as the 'real deal'. There is no appreciable quality difference. There were only a very few exceptions, and they weren't the 'superstars' of the industry. Joseph Rodgers bought all their steel from other vendors until the 1880s (if memory serves me, it might've been a little earlier, but not much).

The system of employment in Sheffield meant that any given 'crew' of workers was quite likely working for several different cutlers -- the guy whose name got put on the blade. George Wostenholm famously exerted unusual influence over the final product, but most were happy to pay workers to make goods with their name on.

These were not inferior goods.

All that said, unless those $180 quasi-Rodgers razors are somehow exceptional, I personally would pass on them. Antique store vendors can get strange ideas of the value of the things they have, especially when they confuse celluloid with ivory or tortoise shell.

If you want 'premium' quality, unless you are extraordinarily well educated on the subject, buy from someone who knows their stuff rather than an antique store or eBay. You will spend more but gamble less.

And while Bokers and Heljestrands are definitely very good shavers, they aren't leagues beyond classic Sheffield razors, or generic Solingen, or barely-heard of French razors. Personally, my 1880's Boker is decidedly middle of the pack across 160+ different razors from around the world. My Heljestrands are definitely at the head of the pack, but they share their leading position with razors of vastly differing 'value'. A famous name is not a guarantee of superior quality -- often razors made for American hardware stores around 1900 are just as good as the famous brands, usually because they were made by those more famous companies (or even less famous but still very good).

Personal preference, the quality of your shaving technique and even your tap water will make a bigger difference in the experience of shaving than the brand of the razor assuming the same quality of honing and similar grinds.