HHT? a question again?

Hello gentlemen,
I always use HHT to check the shavereadyness of my blades. Since always, AFA I remember, my razor pass the HHT before I start shaving and after I've finished it doesn't any more. I have to strop 20-30 before it passes again the HHT. I've always been thinking that's normal, but this morning I got the idea that it could be related to my beard toughness and am asking your opinion.
note I strop before shaving, then shave WTG half face, 10 strops, then shave the second half, 10 strops, finish difficult places XTG.
Is that normal, is that same happening to your blades?

Usually I don't find stropping needed during the shave but I honed a Dove that needed stropping by the third pass the other day. It was a little uncomfortable at that point because the edge was too fragile.. Took it back to the hones & was then able to complete a 4 pass shave without stropping for the last pass. I can't say if your beard is a factor tho.

I would blame your shaving technique, before I assumed my whiskers were tough enough to blunt hardened steel. Then again, I have a light beard. I often wonder how dramatic the difference really is for someone with a thick, heavy beard growth. Seems like most guys with thick beards tend to agree that their whiskers ARE tough enough to blunt hardened steel in short order. I suppose they know better than I. After all, it is a very thin fin of hardened steel...

In order to know, we'd need to set up controls that would require too much time, funding, and rules, to be fun. So, I guess supposition will have to suffice.

I would think the edge is too refined and or your angle may be too high. If the angle is shallower and you still have trouble, I would hone the blade again, keep at the 1k or equivalent until it cuts arm hair, then finish as usual. If the same results, I would take one step away from the finish. Ex: if you use a pasted strop, eliminate and go straight to leather, if you use the 12k, finish it on the 8k. YMMV

Bill, this is an interesting comment to me, in view of all of the fixation on fine, expensive stones, etc. What's your logic on this?

I ask because my favorite razor, a new Boker Silver Steel, works best when finished on an 8K King Gold stone. Go higher, and it doesn't work at all. From the King, it's great, and lasts quite a while, too. It works so well that I've pushed my previous favorite, a Goldedge Dubl Duck right out of the running. Now I'm trying to get the DD to shave like the Boker, and it's just not happening, so I'm trying to figure out a strategy that will work with it.

I gather from the Boker supplier, The Superior Shave, that the Boker Silver Steel is harder, and harder to sharpen. I've been using the King stone for 30 years on HSS knives, and didn't feel like Silver Steel was problematic at all (it took me all of about five minutes to get it running), but the DD has me stumped.

I don't strop between passes either. I would think that if you need to strop between passes your razor isn't "there" regardless of HHT. OTOH, it may just be that you don't need to strop in between but you're just doing it because you want to .... think it needs it ?

I noted the OP says his beard is tough, while regjoe says his is 'light'. I did some thinking on this awhile back and realized that where I thought I have a tough beard I don't really know in comparison with other people because I've only shaved my beard. I can say that my cheeks and parts of my neck are easy to shave while my chin area, and parts of my neck, are very tough. I would assume that I am not alone, and that most of us have a mix of tough and light.

Guys who shave their whole head are the ones who encounter sure enough tough areas. The density of hair on parts of the head is thick and the hair tough. Anyway.... point is they get through it with straight razors so the razors are capable if they are well honed and stropped.

I have gotten great shaves at the 8k level. That is my test shave level before I go up to higher grits. IME when I go to higher grits the razor isn't so much sharper, though I guess it is to a certain extent, as much as it is smoother. I have seen guys say that they get HHT at 8k, move up to 12 or 16k and they no longer get HHT. I just keep at it until it is dialed in. Sometimes that can be a lot of work IME. The bevel set, as is frequently noted, is the most important part and AFAIC an eye loupe or a microscope is essential to really know what is going on. At least for me it is ...... YMMV.

A less refined edge will last longer. The absolute edge is larger than a very refined one. I did a little experiment with .1 micron lapping film. I finished a razor and did 30 laps on the film. Sharpest Ive ever felt but the edge crashed middle of second shave. I tried modern steel and couldn't get 3 shaves. 8k hone is plenty sharp, try it maybe that's what you need. I have shaved many times off the 8. I used my latigo stop for 30 laps and then 50 on bridle. Im not sure it made the difference but it shaved great. Latigo is a little rougher than bridle to smooth it out. Let us know how you made out!

I have honed quite a few modern silver steel razors (say from the 1940s onwards for arguments sake) and have found that more laps on the hone are necessary for around 75% of them. Some were much harder to hone, ie took longer. The others I couldn't detect much of a difference on.

Below are some Rockwell Hardness ratings - these were gathered form manufacturers info, from people who have had their razors tested for some strange reason and from some modern makers who have or have access to testing machines:

G&F Timor (new): 56/57 HRC
Wade & Butcher: 58/59 HRC
Herder: 59 HRC
Case: 60/61 HRC
Puma: 61/62 HRC
Older TIs: 62 HRC
Hart: 63 HRC
Wacker Damascus: 63 HRC
New TIs: 63/65 HRC
Iwasaki: 64/65 HRC

It must be noted that the test may be one point on either side of the rating, so for those giving just a single figure we either assume that this is the mean figure or take it as one point each side of the given figure.

Personally, from 62 HRC and up I can definitely detect the difference while honing.

Modern silver steel is usually delivered with a quench hardness of 64 - 69 HRC.

But hardness is only one aspect: the fineness of the grain composition, retained austenite and a lot of other things come into play, it's definitely not all about the rockwell rating.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have honed quite a few modern silver steel razors (say from the 1940s onwards for arguments sake) and have found that more laps on the hone are necessary for around 75% of them. Some were much harder to hone, ie took longer. The others I couldn't detect much of a difference on.

Below are some Rockwell Hardness ratings - these were gathered form manufacturers info, from people who have had their razors tested for some strange reason and from some modern makers who have or have access to testing machines:

G&F Timor (new): 56/57 HRC
Wade & Butcher: 58/59 HRC
Herder: 59 HRC
Case: 60/61 HRC
Puma: 61/62 HRC
Older TIs: 62 HRC
Hart: 63 HRC
Wacker Damascus: 63 HRC
New TIs: 63/65 HRC
Iwasaki: 64/65 HRC

It must be noted that the test may be one point on either side of the rating, so for those giving just a single figure we either assume that this is the mean figure or take it as one point each side of the given figure.

Personally, from 62 HRC and up I can definitely detect the difference while honing.

Modern silver steel is usually delivered with a quench hardness of 64 - 69 HRC.

But hardness is only one aspect: the fineness of the grain composition, retained austenite and a lot of other things come into play, it's definitely not all about the rockwell rating.

Regards,
Neil

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Neil,
You have Rockwell C ratings for the W&B in the high 50's and I'm really surprised by that. I would have thought it was much lower. Is it your impression that this is probably a standard hardness form most of the good Sheffield manufacturers?

I thank you all gentlemen, I got many suggestions to think on. It IS true that my angle is high as well that I probably strop because I want rather than need,
I finish my edges on 8k but then I strop a lot.
I add that my longer lasting blade is a carbonsong TI.

Oakshotte,

I have two (2) W&B razors of the same model ('For Barbers Use', ca. 7/8", quarter hollow).

The steel on one is very much harder than the other; you can really tell the difference when honing !

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Neil,
You have Rockwell C ratings for the W&B in the high 50's and I'm really surprised by that. I would have thought it was much lower. Is it your impression that this is probably a standard hardness form most of the good Sheffield manufacturers?

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As Russ says, there is a lot of variation - I have seen HRC ratings of at least a couple of points lower than this for W&Bs. The main reason must be that in those days it was very much a hand-eye approach. You can imagine the difficulty of a man working in dim light trying to eyeball the colour of steel while it is being heat treated - different background light levels, how tired or how fresh he was, whether he had been on the razzle the night before, etc, etc, could all affect his judgement. As we progress into more modern times I suppose the accuracy improved, especially with the introduction of new tools and techniques. Sheffield, however, despite being the steel capital of the world and having the greatest array of alloy and bijou steels available at the time, clung to old methods - some companies continued to hand forge and grind well into the 20th C, for example.

On the whole, for the number of razors I have had in my hands, the oldest ones appear to have the most variation, although a very large number of late 1700 and early 1800s razors can still easily hold their own against modern razors - some eclipse the performance of some of most modern razors. After a while you can see trends in hardness among different makes - Bengalls all seem to be good hard steel, as do Butlers, Mappins and a host of others, while Slaters seem to be softer, for example. Most are more than capable shavers - out of the thousands of old Sheffield razors I have honed and restored, I have only ever had one back that was too soft to shave with - unfortunately it had six brothers, all in the same condition that I just keep for old times sake!

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

As Russ says, there is a lot of variation - I have seen HRC ratings of at least a couple of points lower than this for W&Bs. The main reason must be that in those days it was very much a hand-eye approach. You can imagine the difficulty of a man working in dim light trying to eyeball the colour of steel while it is being heat treated - different background light levels, how tired or how fresh he was, whether he had been on the razzle the night before, etc, etc, could all affect his judgement. As we progress into more modern times I suppose the accuracy improved, especially with the introduction of new tools and techniques. Sheffield, however, despite being the steel capital of the world and having the greatest array of alloy and bijou steels available at the time, clung to old methods - some companies continued to hand forge and grind well into the 20th C, for example.

On the whole, for the number of razors I have had in my hands, the oldest ones appear to have the most variation, although a very large number of late 1700 and early 1800s razors can still easily hold their own against modern razors - some eclipse the performance of some of most modern razors. After a while you can see trends in hardness among different makes - Bengalls all seem to be good hard steel, as do Butlers, Mappins and a host of others, while Slaters seem to be softer, for example. Most are more than capable shavers - out of the thousands of old Sheffield razors I have honed and restored, I have only ever had one back that was too soft to shave with - unfortunately it had six brothers, all in the same condition that I just keep for old times sake!

Regards,
Neil

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Thanks for the explanation, Neil. Admittedly, it's hard to imagine a tough old Sheffield razor maker letting a little post razzle fatigue impact his razor making judgment, but I'll take your word for it.

I always find it astonishing how skilled and exact experienced craftsman can be in the absence of sophisticated modern equipment. Reminds me of a man I once knew who started working in paper mills when he was 17 (lost his arm in one of the machines as a young man). By the time he was 50, he was the Superintendent of one of the largest, fastest paper machines in the world. He got a call in the middle of the night telling him to come down to the mill because "we're not making paper". When he got there, he walked into the lobby and knew right away what the problem was by the smell. He called down to the foreman in charge, told him what to do and then turned around and went home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

The main reason must be that in those days it was very much a hand-eye approach. You can imagine the difficulty of a man working in dim light trying to eyeball the colour of steel while it is being heat treated - different background light levels, how tired or how fresh he was, whether he had been on the razzle the night before, etc, etc, could all affect his judgement. As we progress into more modern times I suppose the accuracy improved, especially with the introduction of new tools and techniques.

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I've been lucky with Sheffields from that era. I've has some that were very hard but none that were so soft they wouldn't hold an edge. This article, here, on the 1903 Springfield rifle failures during WW1 illustrates the variance of the eyeball heat treat method that Neil is referring to. Thought it might be of interest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I've been lucky with Sheffields from that era. I've has some that were very hard but none that were so soft they wouldn't hold an edge. This article, here, on the 1903 Springfield rifle failures during WW1 illustrates the variance of the eyeball heat treat method that Neil is referring to. Thought it might be of interest.

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Great article. Thanks.